Jimmy Turner 0:00

So you've learned about personal finance. After listening to every episode of money meets medicine, you're even building wealth with 25 to 30% of your income as you crush your student loans and invest in low cost diversified index fund portfolios, and then it hits you like a ton of bricks, it's going to take you 15 to 30 years to save enough to retire. And if you are like I was, and you feel trapped or stuck in your situation, the odds are you aren't willing to wait that long. Keep listening, learn how to speed up the journey to financial freedom.

Ryan Inman 0:34

Welcome to the money meets medicine podcast where we talk all about the personal finance topics you had wished you'd learn in medical school. I'm your host, Ryan newman. And here's your co host, the founder of the physician philosopher, who recently has been practicing the artist sitting in silence, and is now convinced some of the woowoo stuff actually works. Dr. Jimmy Turner,

Jimmy Turner 0:54

Hey, man, you can laugh as much as you want. I think this stuff is actually pretty cool. So entrepreneurship has taught me a ton not just about money, but about mindset. And I found that pretty interesting given that you know, went into coaching learn a ton about mindset, and even more being a philosophy major about stoicism and all that, but it might sound woowoo but for a long time, you know, I had a really hard time about unplugging like I've got constant input, like my cell phone or podcasts when I'm driving in my truck or listening to music when I take a shower. I mean, like I'm always listening to something. And none of the things are bad. Of course, you and I would highly encourage people to listen to podcasts, particularly this one. But you know, recently I've been listening to a lot of different other podcasts so ever like James Wedmore is Mind your business and he's got a buddy Brandon was Sarah, I started listening to and I'm reading books and like all these things are like pointing to just sitting in silence is what they often call it or the idea of like, hey, it's okay to be bored. That's actually where creativity comes from. Yeah, so I put some whitespace in my calendar. Now I actually intentionally try to find some space to just not be doing anything, which nowadays feels like it is insane. But the reason I did that is I kind of felt stuck when it came to creative outlets. And so speaking of stuck, that's what this show is all about. So physicians who feel trapped or stuck, and we're gonna dive into what those are like what it means to be a trap physician, who I would say that person is who does not, and potentially some ways that they can benefit from non clinical income and entrepreneurship. But before we do that, right, who's our sponsor for this show?

Ryan Inman 2:18

Oh, yeah. Our sponsor today is Michael Revis with Mr. Insurance, and he's a small business owner who helps physicians with their disability insurance needs. Michael's a great guy. We've used him literally hundreds of times, running quotes with our clients. He's a CFP, professional, he's insurance agent, and he's committed to helping physicians all across the country, where third term life and disability insurance needs. He provides objective transparent, and I favorite part of the education focused process that aims to help physicians make really good decisions and avoid over complicating things. He's exclusively offers the own occupation, disability insurance policies for residents, fellows, and attending physicians. Like I said, I really like Michael, he's a great guy. I know he's gonna have your best interest at heart when it comes to disability insurance. And I know that you'd be happy to help you with whatever your insurance needs are. So reach out to Michael. And you can find him at doctor Podcast Network comm slash Mr. Insurance, that link is also in the description of the show. You're listening to us right now. Or you can contact him at 800-817-4522. I just was laughing Jimmy the woowoo stuff. Woo, who calls it woowoo stuff, man, come on. Like, I've heard touchy feely, and I've heard some other things. But Whoo, unless you're like, whoo,

whoo, what But no, I actually, before we jump in, I have been trying this morning routine. And it's not working out very well. But I'm trying, which I think is part of the battle and and being consistent with trying, but I've got to add in a few other things to my morning routine that we're doing instead of screaming kids and flailing all over the morning at 7am. But what do we got going on? Jimmy today with the show? We're going to tackle a few key topics. So maybe give a just a quick overview of like, where we'd like to kind of go and then let's unpack it.

Jimmy Turner 4:06

Yeah, so I think that it's been an up and coming thing that there are Facebook groups out there that have almost 100,000 docs, and then about non clinical income position, side gigs, passive income. And this is becoming more and more and more prevalent. And I'm honestly one of the poster children of why this thing is happening. And it's because I felt trapped. And so I wanted to talk a little bit about, you know, the doctors out there that feel trapped, want nonclinical income, they want options, they feel stuck, and exactly who trap doctor is who it's not, and then maybe dive into the role of non clinical income in that person's life. And whether that's even right for everybody, you know, because I think that it's important to really discuss the pros and cons of this. And you know, for people that are listening to how to figure out if this is something that they'd be interested in diving into a little further.

Ryan Inman 4:51

So let's start with who is not a trapped physician. Let's start the glass half full.

Jimmy Turner 4:56

Yeah. So I think it's a great question and really, if you are a person who's been listening to money meets medicine, you've been diving into, you know, other personal finance, physician finance content, blogs, podcast books, and you've just totally realized that you now have a solid financial plan in place, you have something that's going to get you there to your financial independence in the next 10 1530 years. And you're completely happy in your job, you love medicine, you love what you're doing, you don't feel trapped, you don't feel stuck. In fact, you're loving your journey right now. And you have a path to getting to financial independence. That is a not trapped physician, that's someone who is on the journey, enjoying it. And if you were that person, kudos to you. I think that that is awesome. And I wish that for absolutely everybody that's listening to the show. Unfortunately, it's my experience that even though that's the the physician is not trapped, the physician that has that journey that they're loving, and that they found that work life balance, and they are going to get to that number by the age that they want. It's been my experience that there are a lot of doctors out there that feel trapped, or stuck. So you know, that's kind of the distinction for who's not a trap physician is someone who loves their job, they love their path. They love their plan. They love the journey. They love where they're going, and they're happy with the time by which they're going to get there. Okay, so

Ryan Inman 6:09

I like that a lot. I like how you didn't mention that. It was like they feel like they're, you know, making so much money and swimming in their gold coins like Scrooge McDuck. Like it wasn't about necessarily all about money, it was more understanding the journey, being happy, where you're at not wanting to change much, if anything, I mean, obviously, I think it's, for those outside of medicine, every job has the pros and cons, right? You can't get rid of every con, there's just not a job out there. Even starting my own business, like I still have cons, I would be in kind of this non trap spot, you kind of stated it really well of someone who maybe isn't trapped. For the flip side of this coin, for those that are feeling trapped. What does that exactly mean to you, Jimmy?

Jimmy Turner 6:50

So I'm just going to describe this from my own experience and the experiences of the clients that I've worked with the health coaching experience and other doctors that I've talked to. But basically the trap physician is someone who really feels undervalued, unappreciated, they feel unheard, they've maybe suggested changes that they could make at their hospital or clinic where they work that would improve both, you know, their work life and the way they take care of patients. And those suggestions have gone unheard. They are a cog in the wheel, they feel like a number, they don't feel like, you know, there's anyone who really in administration that cares about them, or knows them, if they pass them on the street, they wouldn't even realize that they work for them, you know, they may be burned out, and they don't feel like they have a ton of options, you know, and they might be just feeling kind of stuck in a life that should be making them happy. Like they have this idea that, hey, I worked so hard to get to where I am, I should be happy. But you find yourself in a situation where you're not. And you've thought about leaving medicine, maybe you thought about going part time, you know that there's more that you're meant to do, and you feel like medicine just hasn't lived up to that promised land that everyone said it was gonna be if you if you kind of Are any of those things, I would argue that you're trapped, you don't have to be all of them. Those are different stories. Some of them are mine. Some of them are stories from others that I've talked to, if any of that resonates with you, I'd say that you're a trapped position.

Ryan Inman 7:59

Okay. And so I know where we're going with the show talking about non clinical income. And we've kind of hinted at that before. And so your version of becoming from trapped to non trapped, is having additional sources of income. So we can kind of unpack that I've got my own thoughts that we can kind of jump in with. But let's transition now to Okay, we've defined who's trapped and who's not trapped, we obviously want everyone into the not trapped spot. And your kind of thesis around this as well. Let's add nonclinical income, a side gig, however, we want to phrase it into the mix that will help you go from not trapped or trapped to not trapped.

Jimmy Turner 8:38

Yeah. So I think we need to backup first and realize that this is a part of the process. It's a part of the method. You know, it's part of what we teach in the alpha coaching experience. So there are actually three pillars. So the first pillar is your mindset, because I think it's super, super important to realize the thoughts that you're having that are actually leading to your current feelings. Because you know, I'm big on stoicism as philosophy majors background, and I really do believe that your circumstances can't dictate your feelings. It's your thoughts or your beliefs about your circumstance. That's what causes your feelings. And so the thought work and mind work that needs to happen. Before we even discuss about money that has to happen. It's critical. But if the end goal is to have work life balance, to not feel trapped to feel like a liberated physician, if you will, then you have to have gas to put in the car and the gas to put in the car of work life balance is financial freedom is the ability, the tools, the means to be able to get to where you want to go. And so I think that non clinical income plays a part. So again, if you have worked on the mindset, and you have a path to financial independence, that's 510 1520 years away, and you're happy with that timeline. And you have good work life balance. Stop there, don't pass, go just keep enjoying the journey, right? But if you're not and you're like, hey, like I was, and you're like, I'm going to be 49 I had kids when I was young. I was gonna be 49 when all my kids were gone out of the house, and I was like I'm not willing to work 60 hours a week, 55 hours a week. For the Next 15 years, and then all my kids are gonna be gone. And so what sped that journey up for me was nonclinical income. And so for every nonclinical dollar you earn, that's $1, that you don't have to be earning from your job. And so there are endless possibilities when it comes to this. But the idea is you're trying to replace clinical income that you're making as a physician with income that you're making from some other source or revenue. Now, I'm calling this noncritical income. In my experience, this is the most common way. But honestly, this could be income from a partner or spouse, it could be, you know, really just trying to drive that wedge in between what you earn and what you spend. So nonclinical income earning money is one way to do that, of course, you can always cut your lifestyle and spend less, I find that people are pretty reticent to do that. But really, the purpose is to give yourself some space between where you live and what you make. Yeah, I

Ryan Inman 10:44

mean, most people focus on the expense side of things, right? It's the thing that we can easily control, manipulate, and cut expenses. And that's unfortunately, what gets tied to budgeting, which again, I think, honestly comes back to mindset and having a different approach to cash flow planning, but most people typically focus on well just cut more expense, therefore I save more, therefore, I can work less. And then you become more miserable doing that, because now you're not even spending the money that you're busting your butt to do. So, Jimmy, you're essentially talking about, well, instead of making X amount, you're gonna make x plus y. And that will get you there potentially quicker. I look at this as well it doesn't that increase the amount of time that they need to then turn around and actually work, because now you're working temporarily more hours in a week. And then you're further driving the wedge of Hey, I want to spend time with family versus now I'm got one job plus a second job.

Jimmy Turner 11:35

Yeah, I think it's a really important question. Because I actually struggle with this for a while like I didn't do this. Well, I get asked all the time, like, hey, how did you handle you know, your podcasts and the blog and the business and your three kids and you know, hanging out with your wife and all the different stuff that I do. I'm going to coach my little boy soccer practice after this, for example. And, you know, so like, I always tell people, I'm honest, I'm a transparent person, I say I didn't do it, well, I struggled, I was burning the candle at both ends, I got even more burned out. And so honestly, that is a risk of this is that if you don't do it, well, you can absolutely burn out faster. And in fact, if you talk to a lot of entrepreneurs, they burn out in entrepreneurship, just like doctors do in medicine. And so you have to be careful with how you go through this process, which is one of the reasons why it's really helpful to kind of get the help from someone that's already been through it and can show you the ropes and kind of teach you how to do that. But yeah, no, I agree. I think that there is a potential pitfall there. But the upside, if like, You forced me to say like, Why do doctors feel trapped or stuck or burnt out? If I had to come up with one reason, that was the umbrella reason for all of the reasons, it would be a lack of autonomy. You know, they don't feel like they're in control of the electronic medical records, they can't order the right thing the insurance companies won't approve pre authorizations or prescriptions they have for patients or treatments that they know the patient could benefit from, they have to deal with administrators who tell them to have to run their job and see patients in clinic every 10 to 15 minutes, even though they want to spend 30. I mean, basically, doctors don't control anything anymore. And so they're all burned out. And so the one thing that entrepreneurship and non clinical income really does well and makes it worth taking that risk for is it gives you some control back that you don't necessarily have in medicine. And so I think that's why you see so many doctors running to all of these side gigs and non clinical income opportunities.

Ryan Inman 13:15

I mean, that makes sense to an extent. And before they go off and run into more income, I think fixing the underlying problems outside of work. So obviously, everyone's work life and experiences are very different from each other. But when you leave work, when you clock out whether you work 50 hours or 80 hours a week, I'm not talking about that I'm talking about the hours outside of that. mindset is obviously really important, for sure, right, going through those different pieces. But I also think setting up a plan is actually extremely important for what you're doing and what you're trying to accomplish. Just like you know, hey, you know, you're going to set up a non clinical income and you're going to start a podcast, you don't just like get up and be like, well, I'm starting a podcast and not playing a single thing. You don't just push record and be like, I'll figure it out as we go. That's not what we do. Well, that's what you do. Someone has to manage the behind the scenes of this stuff. Now, in reality, you start a business, I don't care what it is making widgets, like you have to come up with a business plan and have a thought and is this viable for your finances, I'm going to relate this back really quick to find a sense, we're talking about making more. I think it's also about understanding what you have and being happy with where you're at. But prioritizing the things that are really important to you. So instead of spending $2,000 a month on Amazon, I don't care if it's 500, zero or $4,000 a month on Amazon. But if you're not hitting the goals, the things that are really important to you, hey, we want to be able to take that trip to Disney every year to have this great magical experience for 10 days with the kids. If you're not putting any money to that and you're wasting a bunch of money on Amazon heads up you should be looking at this and building a plan to say hey, my spending and my investments my things should be going in this manner. Whether you do it by yourself or the advisor does not matter at all. Just The thought and act of building it, I think would be step one. And then step two, when you go through and go, Oh, great, I've built this plan, I understand where I'm going, this is very unique to us, then it's, well, instead of cutting all these expenses, maybe like spending $2,000, a month on Amazon, and you want to take the Disney trip totally fine. But now you need to make more money in order to do that. And I think this is where this could come into play. If this is where it hits two sides of the sword one, it'll get you away from the day to day grind of clinical, and it'll also increase income levels. But it is it is tough to do. When you look like you're full time here. And now you're trying to add more onto your plate heads up. It's tough entrepreneurship isn't for everyone. And you need to understand kind of the pros and cons before you just jump two feet in

Jimmy Turner 15:49

what I really like to talk about, because I feel like a lot of people talk about how hard small businesses are, and the 90% of them fail and entrepreneurships hard. And, you know, I'm not saying that this road hasn't been challenging that I haven't had ups and downs like I absolutely have. But at the same time, like, if this is something that you are passionate about that you want to be a part of the legacy that you're going to leave, I think that it can be totally worth it. And yeah, I mean, most small businesses don't make a profit the first year. So there's a really good chance that you're going to work on your business for that first year, too, and not make money from it. And so you have to spend a lot of intentional time figuring out what's important to you. But you know, really, for me, like early on, I just got tired of having to feel like I was choosing between being a good husband and a good dad and a good doctor. Like I wanted to be good at all three of those things. And so for me, part of that process was learning how to say no, you know, we've talked about it before my hell yes, policy, but I say no to a lot of things now, like a ton of things. I don't show up for meetings, I don't show up for all sorts of stuff now. And it's kind of an expectation that like, unless I've said that I'm going to be there like I'm not coming. And the reason why is because like I'm a disobedient disrespectful worker, you know, I'm not a bad employee. That's exactly what this is.

Unknown Speaker 16:56

But now they're

Jimmy Turner 16:59

the reason why is because like I recognized that I was putting time in like, like the 55 hours doesn't include all that other stuff that a lot of doctors do. And it doesn't include 39 hours of clinical work. And I think 15 hours of charting is how those numbers shake out when medscape did the study on numbers of hours that doctors work on average and average is 53.4. So that means a lot of you work more, some of you work less. And it's an interesting thing. Because when I started saying no to that stuff, I started realizing, oh, this thought this idea I have in my head that there's not enough time in the day is actually just a thought, as crazy as it sounds, everybody gets the same 24 hours. And so you just have to spend intentional time doing the life planning stuff, doing the tough coaching questions and figuring out the thought work that allows you to determine what's important to you. But you might realize that you're doing a lot of things right now that are valuable to someone else and not you and you're doing it because you feel like you should or because you're a people pleaser. And when you shed that shit, excuse me, you will move on and move past all of that. And when you get to a point where you're unapologetic about who you are, and you're very clear about what you want, and the legacy you're trying to leave. I don't know, I found out there's a lot more hours of my time than I realized when I first finished training, and I was doing all of the things that everyone expected of me so so I was burning the candle at both ends, not entirely because of my business. It was more because I wasn't good at prioritizing, which to your point, making a plan, having those tough conversations is so vital and important. And that's one of the reasons why did you guys

Ryan Inman 18:17

catch that last little piece? He said to your point, which is the best point that we're gonna make the whole show. Yeah, make it a plan.

Jimmy Turner 18:25

Yeah, you just need to have the extra notch there.

Ryan Inman 18:27

It's good for you. I needed that justification to come back. And that's Jimmy's way of saying Ryan, you're so smart. You're so right. Yeah,

Jimmy Turner 18:33

we made fun your hat size on the last show is because your brain so I mean, it's it's a huge

Ryan Inman 18:36

brains. It's amazing. I don't know what to even do with this half the time. But okay, really quick, Jimmy, we're talking about income, we're talking about adding more to the plate. I think it would be irresponsible of us to not state one how hard this is whatever you end up choosing. But you also have truly think through. And I really do mean that because if you said hey, look, my life's passion is to open a bakery. And I want to bake the all these delicious goods and get everyone nice fat and happy. Awesome, I would come and check it out because I would but if you did that in 2019, and then COVID hits in 2020, there's nothing you're going to do to survive. In that bakery environment, all of retail got crushed. So understanding the business plan, understanding that things can change that are outside of your control, understanding that you are going to be putting a lot of time, effort, blood, sweat and tears into whatever business you're doing. I don't care if it's a bakery, if it's blog, if it's some other type of use of your MD or do degree that you're gonna you know, be in medicine, but not really in medicine. Maybe that's, you know, some practice work or whatever it is. Some stuff is going to be out of your control. But having that plan is critical. And knowing that it's tough, but also Jimmy and I think I'm happy to throw my instance here but I know you can't as well is that when you start making some money, that money initially doesn't come back to you. One it's going to go to the government Yay, Uncle Sam. But two, you're gonna start to realize that maybe you need to build a team around you to help offset some of these things. So then you can still do what you love doing. So I'll take the podcast, for example. Like, I don't edit the podcast, Jimmy doesn't edit the podcast we have Nathan. Thanks, Nathan, for editing our podcast. Hey, Nathan, right. And I seem to be YouTube live streaming. That is someone else that is doing that work. So when we have a sponsor, like Michael Revis, who's a fantastic guy, he paid to have an ad on the show, we generate income from the show, we turn around, and we spend almost all that income currently into a reinvesting back into the show. So Jimmy, and I can show up, we can have a great time. This is honestly what I do. And what Jimmy does for fun. We just love educating and love helping people with their personal finances. This is just a passion of ours. We don't watch TV, this is what we're doing. Yes, we're nerds. But we take a portion of that, and we reinvest it back in and you will do that, regardless of what your business is, whether it's real estate, or bakeries, or medical malpractice, or whatever it is, you're going to build a business and you're going to have to then turn around and hire. So don't expect Oh, well, I can make $50,000 from this that 50k after taxes 30,000. That's, you know, almost 3000 a month, I'd be able to go down to point seven. No, there's a lot more that goes into running a business than than that unless somehow you figured out to clone yourself and then contact us because we'd like to know,

Jimmy Turner 21:24

actually, my other clone is upstairs right now doing laundry.

Ryan Inman 21:26

It'd be amazing.

Jimmy Turner 21:28

So yeah, I agree. And you know, just for practicality purposes just to help people out if you have started a side gig and nonclinical income source, you have a business I highly recommend I could not recommend hire. In fact, a book that Ryan and several other people actually recommended to me, which was profit first by Mike mccalla wits. And so if you're having that problem, if you have a business, for example, I know a coach who has a seven figure business, they make over a million dollars a year in their business. And they had multiple months last year that they couldn't pay themselves.

Ryan Inman 21:57

That's insane.

Jimmy Turner 21:58

That cannot happen. And the only reason that that does happen is because you have a business that's not designed well. Like you can't accidentally make a million dollars in revenue and not pay yourself. That's just not a thing. The reason that happens is if you don't understand how to pay yourself first. So just like you save money for yourself, first you pay yourself first in personal finance in business, you pay yourself first to because there doesn't need to be some profit in a business and you can reinvest and go back into the business and build the business.

Ryan Inman 22:22

Well, really quick that book if you decide that you'd like to pick it up, you can still profit first by Mike mccalla wits, if you'd prefer to listen than not read a book, I just interviewed him in February of 2021, on the financial residency podcast, and you can get the cliff note version there, it's still going to be just as impactful because as some pretty hard hitting questions. And I interviewed the author, there

Jimmy Turner 22:42

is a man not urine.

Ryan Inman 22:44

Oh, come on.

Jimmy Turner 22:45

Yeah. So when it comes to this, you know, I want to listen kind of common things that people consider as a real estate one, we talk a lot about that on the show, because it's the hot and heavy thing. Because of all of the things we've talked about in the past. I know some people that work for pharmaceutical companies or do tech work, you know, and use their MD and do background, you know, in order to provide consulting work to those companies medical malpractice work or chart reviews in the legal world. And then you got the online stuff, right blogging, podcasting video channels. And as Ryan alluded to blogging, podcasting video channels, that content creation can be a challenging place to make money. And so how you do that is an interesting topic in and of itself. And then, of course, my favorite, which is online courses and coaching. And so one other tidbit just that I wanted you guys to walk away something that you can use to think through this process. If it's right for you, we're going to talk about a lot of things in a second that you know, will help you figure that out as well. But I actually created a guide for people that want to start online side gigs and seeing go to the physician philosopher.com slash ultimate dash guide. And the link is in the show notes as well. But I just want to point that out to you. Because I think a lot of people come into this Ryan thinking like, Hey, I'm gonna make just tons of money, like I'm gonna make so much money. And they have no idea what they're getting into, they have no idea how to figure out what they should be doing. They just see what other people are doing, and try to do it too. And so that guide will help you get through that process. But

Ryan Inman 23:56

they need to plan Jimmy they need a plan. You need to think through and build a plan. I don't care if it's your personal life, your business life

Jimmy Turner 24:03

that asks some of the tough questions that help you make that plan.

Ryan Inman 24:06

And if you are going to start a podcast and you're a physician, this is gonna be a shameless plug I have is the doctor Podcast Network is a fantastic resource. So if you are looking to launch a podcast, or if you do have a podcast, and you're trying to figure out how to actually make it all work, and put it together and get some exposure and all the fun stuff that comes along with podcasting, check out Dr. podcast network.com.

Jimmy Turner 24:28

That has been a wonderful thing. So as Ryan alluded to earlier,

Ryan Inman 24:32

allows Jimmy to just show up. Let's be honest, Jimmy just shows up and looks pretty.

Jimmy Turner 24:36

Yeah, I'll shamelessly plug DPN for that exact reason. So one of the many lessons hopefully you're learning from this episode. But as you make the transition in a business, you're going to work in the business a lot. That's when you burn the candle at both ends. And eventually your job as a entrepreneur as a business owner is to stop working in the business and to transition more and more and more to working on the business as the CEO as the administrator of your business. And so that is fundamentally important. And one way you do that is by delegating other tasks that other people can do that you're either better at it than you are and or more efficient, or they can do something that you don't have to be doing so that you can then go be the visionary and the person that's leading the business. And so yeah, I absolutely delegate 100% of our podcast tasks. And I always well, no way I'm doing it myself.

Ryan Inman 25:22

You know, as I put it in, we have an add on the show, it pays for our team, like very little actually comes to Jimmy and I, but we can just show up, and we know that the team is going to do it correctly. And we've trained them all. And they're a fantastic team. And they handle a lot of the podcasts, the doctor Podcast Network now. And it allows us to scale and enjoy what we do. This is my escape from my normal day to day job. And I love what we do at physician services. But this is my quote unquote, escape and I don't want to have to work on and figure out how to edit a podcast and how to deal with things, I'd rather pay that out and enjoy the things I work on. And it takes time to get there. So whatever it is, like we're really is back to our podcast, because that is one what you guys are listening to. And two, I think we could talk the you know the best about that. But whatever your podcast equivalent is, this is how we're kind of viewing it as you're going to set it up, you're going to spend a lot of time figuring it all out, putting it all together making a plan, you'll actually earn some income, you're going to reinvest the income in the beginning, hopefully, you're one of the businesses that makes it because you have a true passion for it not just viewed as dollars. And once you actually quote unquote, make it then you'll be able to, you know, really be able to have it work passively for you and you're working on the business, not in the business. And that's where I think Jimmy and I are both that.

Jimmy Turner 26:36

Yeah, and I also want to just mention, because you know, we're talking about the subject, that it is not right for everybody, like everybody out there does not need to go run and create a non critical source of income or become an entrepreneur. And I say both of those things, because honestly, they're different. Like, if you look up the definition of an entrepreneur, it's always going to involve some words that involve taking more risk financially, in order to build a business,

Ryan Inman 26:57

you just need to be crazy, dude, you just need to be crazy. You want to work 80 hours for yourself versus 40 hours for the man.

Jimmy Turner 27:04

Yeah, well, so it's so so it is, it's a very interesting thing. And actually, you know, I haven't gotten through this book completely, actually stopped reading it to some extent, but there's a book called entrepreneurial leap by Gino wickman,

Ryan Inman 27:14

what a glowing recommendation I couldn't get through the book, you should listen to it, I don't

Jimmy Turner 27:18

know that I'd recommend it because like, he spends the first third of the book trying to convince you not to be an entrepreneur, which is good, right. And so like, I am an entrepreneur, I already know, I'm an entrepreneur. So like, I kind of felt like maybe this book was for someone that was, you know, maybe in an earlier stage than where I was at. So I put it down. But if you're in the early stages may be a great read for you where I'm at, it just wasn't going to provide a tremendous help. But he spends a third of the book really convincing you why you shouldn't be an entrepreneur. And the reason why is because of what Ryan said earlier, like there are ups and downs peaks and valleys, like you're gonna have to learn how to not only accept failure, but like try to fail like entrepreneurs, no longer view failure as a bad thing. Like that's like, yes, like I pushed the boundaries, you know, and so he has these six things that basically you're born with, he thinks it's like a DNA genetic thing. And if you don't have these six things, he thinks you shouldn't be an entrepreneur. So he calls it, you know, being a visionary, being passionate a problem solvers. The third one risk taker. So you see risk taking, as again, in that definition, no matter who defines it, driven and responsible. So responsible means you don't blame your outcomes on anybody. Right. And so if you're missing one of those six things, he would tell you, like, please don't go be an entrepreneur. But if I stopped there, that's not really telling the full story, because you can still be a business owner, right? You can still be someone who generates nonclinical income, without being an entrepreneur, and entrepreneur is the idea that like you're starting a business that has never been started before. And you're doing something that's, you know, kind of visionary and leading edge, and you're trying to shape the way things are, and you're setting a trend. That's kind of more entrepreneurial, you can just own real estate, honestly, and be a business owner, have an LLC, and make nonclinical income and not have to be a crazy entrepreneur like Ryan and I are. That said, I do think that pretty much every doctor could benefit from the possibility of having non clinical income. And the reason why is because you might love your job right now. But you and I don't know who you're going to be in five or 10 or 15 years, you and I don't know what's gonna happen to medicine in five or 10 or 15 years. And so for me, like, I'm a big proponent of this stuff. And the reason why is because it provides options to doctors. And what I can't stand seeing is doctors who work their tail off to get to where they are, who feel stuck or trapped. And so like, that's why like, I love helping doctors that feel trapped, master their personal finances and learn about entrepreneurship and work on their mindset, their work life balance, too. And we do all that now for coaching experiences. Exactly. We talk to all our clients about and the reason why is because I just I'm tired of seeing doctors who worked hard to get to where they are and they're burned out, we got a suicide epidemic, we have so many negative, terrible things going on. And I feel like the broken medical system at this point is kind of said hey, we're not going to fix this. And to me until we have enough doctors that are really, truly liberated, they're free, they're not trapped anymore, and that they feel like they can speak up and speak out. I just don't Know that, you know the medical system is going to change, I think that it's going to take enough doctors who feel like they now have the ability, they've got the freedom financially to speak up. And so I don't think this is for everybody, Ryan. But I do think that most doctors would benefit from non clinical income.

Ryan Inman 30:15

Yeah, I think we can all pretty much agree that the medical system isn't going to change on its own, it's not going to change. And just like in the market, all related back to personal finance, we don't know what the market returns are going to look like. We actually don't care what the market returns are, as long as we're doing it in low cost, highly diversified, you know, investments. And we're going to talk about the things that we can control. So in investing, that would be your need and ability to take risk, how much you're saving, and what you're actually going to put into the investments, your contributions in, Jimmy's talked about a lot of this stuff that you can actually work through. And part of it is mindset, and a couple other things of what you can change in your jobs or outside of your work. But if you come into this concept, like some people went into medicine, being like, I'm gonna become a wealthy physician by becoming a physician. And doing this majority of you money was not even remotely into this, you were, for all sorts of great reasons. Thank God, there's people like all of you out there that want to take care of others. But you didn't come into this thinking that you're going to just strike it rich, and I like using Scrooge McDuck and shows my age with swimming the gold coins. But if you think you're going to do entrepreneurship, and that's your reason for getting in, you're going to fail, because that is a horrible reason to get into entrepreneurship, you have to want to better yourself better your life, have better work life balance, you want to be able to help people and the money comes with that if you have the passion to do that, because there is some sacrifice, it is tough. I do like the non clinical piece of the income. I think the plan comes first and then that but I hope this was really helpful for all of you to kind of think through that and check out Jimmy's guide.

Jimmy Turner 31:50

Yeah, it's in the show notes is the physician floss for.com slash ultimate dash guide. And I just want to as we round out the show ride, just go back to that one thing that you just mentioned, because I feel like maybe I should have said this at the beginning. But we know that if you're listening this far to the show, you're one of the real listeners. So we appreciate you being here. That said, I completely agree. I think that really comes down to two things. I've written blog posts about this two years ago called the hybrid fit model, right? So part of this is doing all of the things that Ryan and I always talk about, do your due diligence on the basic personal finance stuff, get a plan, have an idea of where you're going take care of your financial future, save enough money to do all of that. I'm not saying don't do that, and do entrepreneurship and build a business. That's not what I'm saying. I'm saying do that. And while you're taking care of your financial future, you can consider nonclinical income to provide some financial freedom right now that may not come from that longer steadier plan that's going to get there 1015 2030 years from now. So both it's a both and not an either or,

Ryan Inman 32:44

I agree. Alright, so Chad, who's in our community emailed in a question to us, and we really got to get that voicemail thing go and Jimmy, because it's so much better to hear people than to have his talk through. But Chad wrote this in so I'm gonna read what he's got. He says, as I'm watching the price to earnings of my portfolio positions creeping up to absurd levels. I'm wishing i'd answered this question a few years ago, what new information would cause you to change your investment strategy? In my case, investment strategies he puts it in quotes, has always meant maxing out retirement funds with standard low v broad index funds. We invest 100% in stocks and haven't lost any sleep due to six figure drops, like last March, which would be march of 2020. But I now find myself debating rebalancing out of growth equities. So I'm not looking for investment advice. Good chat, don't look for investment advice from us or anyone else on the internet. So Well, obviously, chime in with some thoughts. But I'm curious if you'd answer this question for yourselves what your personal answer is. And if you think it's something everyone should answer for themselves in their investment policy statement, even if your answers are something like the end of fractional reserve banking, be curious to know. Thanks, Chad. I love that you tossed him into fractional reserve banking as you're, as you're changing your investment policy statement. Jimmy, do you want to handle this one? First? Do you want me to tackle it?

Jimmy Turner 34:01

I'll say a few things. And I think that one of them is something that we're both going to agree on, which is, you know, you having an investment policy statement IPS. Absolutely. You should have in there at what junctures and what situations would you consider making a change, whether that's time based or situation based, or what have you. So you should absolutely not change your plan, unintentionally. And what I mean by that, and that is literally all coaching is, by the way, is teaching people how to stop doing things unintentionally, and help them figure out how to do it intentionally. That's why I love an IPS is because you're intentionally setting out a plan and saying, this is what we're going to do. And we're going to continue doing this until X, Y or Z happens or whatever. And so you know, the second that you go from an intentional plan to just making decisions with your animal brain, the lower cortex that just does stuff based on dopamine. That's a bad situation. Just please don't do this because you got scared, you know, your serotonin and your dopamine, norepinephrine are all going crazy, like, not the place, not time to make financial decisions. And so, personally, you know, I don't Know that, you know, this idea of returns or you know, portfolio positions and earnings is going to change my investment strategy a whole lot. And the reason why is because I feel pretty confident in knowing the stock market history and in behavioral finance. And for me, it's like, well, if you're going to go away from this, like, where would you go, like he mentioned potentially rebalancing out of growth equity. So I guess, really talking about the changing asset allocation, which immediately brings me to the 100% stocks that Chad's mentioning, right. And we're all different. We all have different risk tolerances. We, you know, Ryan's got 100% stocks uses his mortgage as bonds, I'm 9010. I'm 35. So I feel like 9010 it's pretty reasonable. And I never look at my portfolio. That's not true, maybe every quarter. And so I like Chad have a very high risk tolerance. And so that said, I wouldn't change things because I've been earning money. In fact, I would just ride it out whether I'm earning money or losing it, like the earnings is not going to determine or change my investment strategy.

Ryan Inman 35:54

Yeah, my take on this Chad, again, not investment related advice. So you know, take this as a random dude on the internet, just spouting off a bunch of random stuff. But please do not take this as investment advice or anything like that. I'm still chuckling the end of fractional reserve banking comment. But I'm curious, like Jimmy mentioned, like, how would you actually rebalance out of growth stocks, like if you're in basically high Li diversified low cost index funds like, Are you just going to remove some of the let's say, total stock market, s&p or whatever it is that you're invested in, and then go throw it to small cap, like, there shouldn't be that much change in a true passive investment strategy to rotate out unless you're owning individual securities. And then you have a whole issue, I think, on your own. If that is the you know, basically the bulk of your portfolio, I wouldn't be super concerned with price to earnings, I wouldn't be super concerned with market performance, I'd be looking at the things that you can control your need and your ability to take risk. And I'd argue based on your question, you probably shouldn't be 100% in stocks, because if you're thinking through this enough to want to make changes, you're worried about the other side of this, you've seen a big run up, and now you're worried like, oh, maybe we've had too big of a run up, and maybe these things are overvalued, therefore, I'm going to lose a ton of money. If this actually turns around and goes sideways or down, you're probably invested too aggressively at that point. And no, it seems weird to think through. But right now we're in good times, obviously, we had a very bad time in 2020, in terms of life as a whole. And we had a couple bad months in 2020. But everything pretty much is up since the big correction due to the pandemic, in terms of you know, if we look in the history of financial, if we just took the balance at 1231, every year for the last 20 years, we're still moving up. And so everyone has a much higher risk tolerance for risk or perceived tolerance for risk. When markets are moving up. And you're front running it in a sense and saying, Well, I think I'm going to end up having a big overcorrection if the market does dip, and I don't like that. And so that is what causes me to think you shouldn't be 100% in stock, and that you shouldn't have some other portfolio mix, and you're not worried about it. But because of the price to earnings, this is what you're referencing, I absolutely would not change my investment strategy, my investment strategy would change based on things that I can control, right, I potentially, let's say lose my job, and I have a hard for me as the business owner to lose my job, but I lose my job, we have zero income coming in Word 100% on Taylor's income, that might cause me to make some type of changes in my life, the last thing would probably be my investment strategy. But let's just say that's a big life change, it could cause that to potentially change, highly unlikely. But, you know, that is something that we now can control. Because we lost one side of our income, something could be as as we age, I want to be more conservative. Therefore, I need to alter my investment strategy to reflect that I want to be more conservative, that has changed, fundamentally due to age, because I woke up one day looked at my portfolio was like, oh, my goodness, I made a lot of money, oh, my goodness, the price to earnings is going through the roof. That is not something that I would cause to change my investment strategy at all whatsoever. So hopefully that is helpful for you. Not sure if it is, but I would say probably You're too aggressive. Even if you can't see it yet, walk through more scenarios, and you probably will come up to something like that. And inside the investment policy statement, for those that just maybe aren't aware of what it is, is basically detailing out what you're going to do with your investments, your philosophy, what you're investing in where you're investing, so it could be your 401k for three b a taxable account, whatever it is, and then how you're actually going to manage the investments inside of there. And then you're going to set up a bunch of rules for how you will continue to invest how you will continue to put money in and most people forget this one, but you should have a rule in there for as you make changes. How do you make changes and what kind of lockout period would you have in order to do that? So if I woke up today, and said, Hey, I'd really like to go from 100% 60% Cuz I think the markets overvalued, great, I have a lockout period of 60 days that I can't make any changes, or 60 days if that was the case, that way I have enough time to think through. And I'm not looking and going, Oh, well, the markets moving Oh, Tesla had this Oh, the Fed said this and like I panic and try to sell it like that can occur based on my rules in my investment policy same I'm just giving examples those aren't my actual rules but or what would even cause me to want to change the rules, but I guess I'm still laughing on the end of fractional reserve banking. But Chad, thank you so much for calling in. And hopefully it was helpful. And if any of you guys want to be like Chad and send questions in send them all to Jimmy Imani needs medicine at GM, you can send them to me as well Ryan at money meets medicine COMM And we'd like to get them on the show. And as we wrap this out, thank you so much. If you're made it here, please tell someone else that the show exists because you truly like us. And you think we're providing value and we want to help other people just like we're helping you guys understand personal finance and we'd like to help other physicians so please tell another physician about us and hopefully we can help change their life as well. I don't want to forget to reach out to Mr. Insurance, Michael Revis. He's a fantastic guy. If you have any term or disability questions, he is your man. His goal is to assist all of you in obtaining the most comprehensive coverage that is available for your unique situation. I know you're going to get excellent and high quality service. So check him out at doctor podcast network.com slash Mr. Insurance. And that link is in the description of this show that you're listening to right now. Or you can call them at 800-817-4522 Alright everyone, have a great week and Jimmy and I will catch you next Wednesday. Well let's hear that important disclaimer before we tune off.

Jimmy Turner 41:45

See you take care guys.

Jimmy's daughter 41:52

My dad Dr. Jimmy Turner is a practicing anesthesiologist. Mr. Aiman is a fee only financial planner you should know that this show is not personalized financial advice free. In fact, this shows only for your general education and entertainment purposes. So keep listening to learn how to become a bit yourself financial guru, or go find a great fee only financial planner like Mr. and mentor create a personalized financial plan for you