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Money Meets Medicine Podcast

MMM 67: Mistakes Doctors Make When Switching Jobs

Switching jobs in medicine is extremely common. In fact, over 50% of doctors change jobs within 2-5 years of signing a contract.  And, honestly, this is one of the most common opportunities to make a financial mistake.  This explains why one of the most common questions we hear is what someone should do with their financial situation when they change jobs. 

From backdoor Roth IRA mistakes to not maxing out retirement accounts – this episode covers it all. Join in as we discuss the mistakes you should avoid if you are switching jobs (or ever plan to). 

Physician Contract Reviews

 

Today You’ll Learn

  • How to get your investments right when changing jobs.
  • The one mistake to avoid so that a Backdoor Roth IRA is still available to you after switching jobs.
  • How to avoid a massive student loan mistake that could cost you hundreds of thousands of dollars
  • And more!

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Jimmy Turner 0:00

50% of doctors will change jobs within their first two to five years in practice, and many more will change jobs at some point thereafter, and is exactly at this point that many physicians make mistakes. So keep listening to learn how to avoid some of the most common mistakes many doctors make when switching jobs.

Ryan Inman 0:23

Welcome to the money meets medicine podcast, we talk about the personal finance topics you wish to learn in medical school. I'm your host, Ryan newman, a physician while services and here's your co host and founder of the physician philosopher who firmly believes that financial freedom is the best way to empower physicians to change the broken medical system. Dr. Jimmy Turner. Yeah,

Jimmy Turner 0:43

it's so true, I think a lot of us realize that the medical system is broken. And that results from a lot of different feelings that cause doctors feel trapped, right? Like these non competes and contracts and electronic medical records system, which is clearly just a glorified cash register. I think it's just a way to build patience. It's definitely not meant for patient care. And all the other unnecessary insurance fights you have to fight. But physicians really feeling trapped is the problem. And we need to find financial freedom to basically get out of that trap. And so I actually had a blog post on the physician philosophers my favorite podcast blog post I've ever had Hold on, have I ever just posted for you? I don't care, man, this thing's so good.

Ryan Inman 1:14

Oh, come on.

Jimmy Turner 1:16

So good.

Ryan Inman 1:16

I don't think I've ever just posted but if I did, it would be the best.

Jimmy Turner 1:20

Maybe this one's pretty good. So vagabond, MD he goes by synonymous name on the interwebs as it turns out, and he wrote this post called the hospital not love you back. And I loved this post basically talks about my Angelou quote, which I'm a big fan of, obviously, because she's from Winston Salem, home of the dash where I'm from. And he makes a comment about how all these things that are in medicine make us feel trapped and causes bitterness and that bitterness can turn into a cancer and, you know, really just talks about empowering physicians, it's really that idea that the hospitals not gonna love you back, like the hospital is not going to fix this problem for you. And so financial freedom, I think is one of the few ways that you can empower yourself to fix it, and then to be empowered enough to stand up and speak out about things that need to happen in medicine. And speaking of that, those are a lot of the reasons why doctors consider changing jobs and they're burned out. Or maybe they need to find places closer to family for more support or something changes in their life that makes them consider moving and taking jobs. But I know that I tell my trainees all the time, the stat that we mentioned at the beginning that a lot of doctors over half change in the first two to five years and many more change after that. Yet it is this exact moment that's fraught with some super common mistakes. And so that's what the show is all about. I'm super excited to jump into it helping other Doc's avoid making mistakes that we hear all the time, right and honestly, that are far too common. I guess before we dive into that it's on here, who's our sponsor this week?

Ryan Inman 2:34

Yeah, today a great company, physician financial services, not similar to physician wall services, which is my firm, a physician financial services. And there are a business that works with physicians getting their disability in term insurance. And that is with Larry Keller, who's been in the insurance and financial services industry since 1990. Unlike medicine, which is a standardized path that physicians must take to gain the education and training and experience requirements necessary to get their board certification. The insurance and financial industry really doesn't have that. Larry's famous thing is he said, Hey, I might not be the doctor's first phone call regarding their insurance. But I'm often their last. And Larry's an awesome guy. We've worked with him for years and years and years with our clients, and with the financial residency community and money meets medicine. So happy that Larry is sponsoring the show. And you can find Larry at Dr. podcast network.com slash Larry Keller. And again, the link that we always do is in the description of the show in the podcast player you're listening to us in right now. You

Jimmy Turner 3:36

know, right. So before we dive in, I got to make an extra plug for Larry, because it relates to the show, right? We're talking about mistakes people make oftentimes when people make insurance mistakes, Larry is the guy that I send a lot of people to, and so I totally agree with him being the last call a lot of people make so I'll make an extra plug for Larry there, unsolicited lobby, Larry.

Ryan Inman 3:54

He's a great guy. He's busy. But he does a great job. And he's one of my go twos. So I absolutely love Larry, I appreciate him supporting the show, and really helping all of our community members. But like you said, one of the biggest mistakes that we see when physicians are going to switch jobs is around their benefits package. And and part of that it has Disability Insurance inside of it. And we've seen all sorts of things. So I'm excited to break into kind of maybe top five, there's probably dozens, maybe we'll sprinkled some ones in there. And let's call it a top five. But I think as we get into the details, there's probably going to be some more that end up coming out. But let's talk about the benefits package. I think just to start because it rolls right from the sponsor into this. And it makes perfect sense is that the benefits package when you're looking at the next job, it's likely not going to have the same benefits that you have at your current job one and two, most of you don't actually read the benefits package. It's that 90 100 page or more PDF that comes to you or gets mailed to you. And it gets shoved in the drawer or just maybe not even saved on your hard drive. And most of you won't actually look into it, you'll take what they tell you in the interview is face value, versus kind of digging the details and going what actually are my benefits? And sometimes there's really easy ones, once your disability policy, do they have one, how long is there basically an exclusion, that you can't get it for a certain period of time? How much is the benefit amount? Is it drone occupation, you got to dig through the details. And if you have less disability coverage through the new employer, that means that your individual policy that you got that sits on top of your employer, currently, you all should have that, by the way, you might need to increase the benefit amount. So that means you're going to need to call the agent that sold you the policy and say, Hey, I'm looking switching jobs this I'm doing, can you run the analysis, tell me how much more I would go up and how much more that would cost me per month, most people will not do that, and then get two or three jobs down the road and 10 years later and go, Oh, hey, I probably should have done that one. Now, the harder part, though, is when some of these insurance products are shoved into the employment sponsor plans themself. And we're seeing a lot of employee kind of perks that are benefits, that the employer says, hey, look, we've got this other type of account. And you don't have to do anything in it, you'd have to opt in, but then ends up being some type of insurance product that is basically free to you right now. And I put that in quotes. But if you ever leave, then that is now something that you will have to be either paying into or if you walk away from it, you basically had all this money that your employer put in, go to complete waste. And we've actually had clients even opt out of some of these plans. Because when the employer puts money in, you're like, well, it's free money, why wouldn't you take it, it actually increases your taxable income are these

Jimmy Turner 6:45

life insurance products or disability insurance products, right?

Ryan Inman 6:47

These are some life insurance products that are built into some of these employer sponsored and we're seeing a bunch more of this happen. I don't know why it's happening. But we're seeing a definite tick up in I would say, over the last six or seven years, probably, I don't know, an extra 20% of people that come in are being offered this stuff through there. Plus, I don't know how these firms are targeting physicians or targeting other hospital systems. But they're getting in there. And they're basically creating these super complicated products. And most of the time if you were to leave, and when Jimmy said most people leave their job within two to five years, you're going to end up having to pay, and that is not fun. And so it might seem as backwards of like, well, it's free money, but it ain't free. Again, going back into the benefits package, just not understanding the true value of what's being built into these benefits package is probably one of the biggest mistakes that we've seen, because things that you maybe were taking advantage of or you liked, might not be available. And it might have been only specific to that employer that you're at right now.

Jimmy Turner 7:49

And I'll double down on this one because I actually went and bought a will and its mistake planning stuff. And then subsequently found out that my hospital provides that for free. happens a lot. I didn't read my benefits package, there's like the secret place on the HR portion of our website where they have all these exclusive discounts and deals with other people. And so I've definitely done that myself. And the second thing is that I think this is really important, not just for changing jobs. But in my world, when I have residents that are training and thinking about taking their first job and trying to compare apples to apples, and they don't realize they're comparing apples to oranges, when they just look at the salary. And that's all they consider. And they don't look at, Oh, this one place fills up your 401k to 56k. And the other one only gives you you know, up to 35. In terms of matching contributions, or the disability policy that they do or don't provide, or the life insurance, it's like all of that stuff goes in and together, you have to add it all up. And then you can compare apples to apples, because one place might be offering you a higher salary. But the benefits are terrible. And that might actually be not as good of a job, even though the salary theoretically is higher. And so I always encouraged my residents like really get a full picture of this whole thing, which includes the benefits. I totally agree. And so if I had to tell my residents that when they're leaving training, picking up the first job, I know there are other people that are changing jobs that haven't thought about same thing.

Ryan Inman 9:08

Absolutely. And there's so many miscellaneous perks that you may get that you might just not know of, until you're there later on. And so I'd even ask in the interviewing process of what those perks look like, and you know what they've negotiated, and maybe it's discounted rates to different services. Jimmy said, a big one that we see all the time is there's attorney services inside there. And it's not just a state planning, I've seen ones that it's like, hey, if you get a traffic ticket, call this attorney and they'll fight it for you like random things that are inside there.

Jimmy Turner 9:37

I need that kind of attorney.

Ryan Inman 9:38

Thankfully, I haven't had a ticket like knock on wood. But there's all sorts of perks that you maybe get. I know here there's some hospitals or practices that offer like discounted tickets to Disneyland and things being in Southern California. That's pretty cool. If you've got young kids, so I highly encourage you to open 100 page PDF, read through it and make sure even if you're not switching jobs, like every year things change. So ask for an updated one, and actually review it and then archive it on your desktop and never look at it again, that's fine. But I would still every year ask HR, what are the benefits package? What does that look like? Are there any perks or anything that they've changed and go through it? But speaking of people who take higher comp and not look at these things, the next one, I've got a pretty interesting story for you. But I think the second biggest common mistake that we see is that most of them ignore their student debt concerns, and I'm talking more are they going for PSLF? Or not? And if they're not, are they going to refi? And they end up not asking the right questions thinking, Oh, well, this is a nonprofit hospital, therefore, I have to be working for the nonprofit, Well, it turns out, we're hired by this group inside of this, and it's not actually going to qualify, and so they don't do the digging. And when you have multiple six figures of student debt, that should be way more important, then how much are you going to pay me? Because you want to understand, how does this impact you going forward with pretty massive student loan burden. And I've got a story that there was a physician that was essentially working, and they had not the best hours or call schedule, and I'm just gonna throw out like random numbers say they were making 300,000. And they were offered at a different job $330,000. And you're like, Okay, well, that's a 10% raise, that's a decent amount of money. But they had over half a million dollars of student debt, and their 300k job, which again, these aren't the right numbers, because it's an academics, they were able to get PSLF. And they were eligible. And they were putting things through, and they were early in the process, but they still had the ability to do that. And instead, they ended up going to the other job for 30k having to refi out their student debt. And now pay all of that back for $30,000 more a year. And if you lived in New York, or California or one of these high tax states, you essentially made a pay move for about $1,000 a month, and now you're paying over 500k in student loans back plus interest over the life of those loans. It would take 15 years or more for that to break even. That is a massive mistake. If you're not paying attention and doing things correctly and thinking about how the long term impact is versus the hammer make more money.

Jimmy Turner 12:27

Yeah, the student loan mistakes are just they're so brutal, because the amount of debt and what they're compounding at this is just such a common thing. I was sitting next to one of our residents the other day, not even changing jobs. He was talking about, like different circumstances. But he's like, Hey, I read your book. Thanks. I appreciate hopefully, it was the worst book you've ever read.

Ryan Inman 12:46

You're one of the four that did Yeah, yeah.

Jimmy Turner 12:48

It was like No, it was actually super helpful. I wish I'd read it five years ago. And he got to the part about repay, and about 47 seconds, I realized that he cost himself $40,000 in the last five years, because he hadn't read the book, he hadn't had a lecture on student loans. And so like these mistakes, and student loans get compounded so quickly. And so much. This is like the one area that it pains me like, whether it's in residency or when you leave, let's say that you did a five year residency and you do a two or three year fellowship, and you've got 567 $800,000 student loans and like, no academics is not for me, I'm like you do realize, like, you could work in academics for two more years, and have $800,000 forgiven. And you're just saying, You're not going to do that, because it's not for you. Like, why not try that out,

Ryan Inman 13:34

you could work for free, basically, and make hundreds of 1000s of dollars a year in the forgiveness,

Jimmy Turner 13:40

it's crazy. And a lot of times Ryan and I are gonna tell you don't let the financial tail wag the dog, like your life and your goals and the things that you're looking for are so important. Like you need to have those primary and in focus. But that doesn't mean like you just like ignore the numbers completely and say 567 $100,000 it's not gonna impact things at all don't make bad decisions when you change jobs that offer PSLF for a job that theoretically offers a little higher salary, and now you're costing yourself $500,000. And I get so brokenhearted when I see these things, because in particular, while my resident mistake that I just talked about is not great, they can recover from that to some extent. Once you refinance your student loans, that bridge is burned forever. And so that mistake like if you only hear one thing on this podcast today, please don't refinance your student loans until you the Public Service Loan Forgiveness is 100% without a doubt, no questions just completely crystal clear. Public Service Loan Forgiveness is not something you're going to do. And when you change jobs, sometimes you have to cross that bridge and you may not even realize it.

Ryan Inman 14:41

And for any of you that think that PSLF is rigged, it's not gonna happen. They're gonna change it. I highly doubt at this point they would we talked in 2017 and 18 and 19 and been on air 1000s of times pretty much talking about PSLF and like, we're not sure let's put this side fund away just in case it ends up being tired. taxable or whatever. Now, I have now switched my mindset around that in March of 2020 occurred. And they put everyone basically in forbearance with $0 in payments and 0% interest. And that does not finish until September of 21. And I don't think they're going to continue that forward enough for getting vaccinated economies restarting and picking back up. So I don't think they're gonna give it much longer than but 18 months for the entire country, whether you're in a public service job or not, basically just received no interest and no payments for 18 months, I don't see PSLF going anywhere. So if that is a primary concern, or primary driver, I would say, actually do some research and reading and look into how the laws are being presented, because everything is for new borrowers. And what I mean by new borrowers is think high schoolers, someone who's never taken out debt from the federal government is considered a new borrower, not someone that is taken out debt 10 years ago, and is basically five or six years into the repayment process. I firmly say there's a point 00 1% chance that they're going to do anything with that. So don't freak out with horrible headlines and click Beatty crap. PSLF is here to stay, I think everyone will be perfectly fine if you're in repayment for PSLF.

Jimmy Turner 16:20

Totally agree.

Ryan Inman 16:20

So another one that I see quite a bit and this is me slightly nitpicky. But this is when you're an attending, I think you start getting all your ducks in a row, we can start looking at like the gamer term of min maxing and making sure that we're doing all the right things. And speaking of Maxine, it's not maxing out your contributions to your 401k or your 403 b by the end of the year that you're switching. So let's just say that we're in July, and you're switching jobs, and you have to look ahead and go Hmm, do I have an exclusion, like maybe there's a gear exclusion, that I can't contribute to the new 401k or four, three B, if so, then before you leave your current job, you need to max out your entire 401k or four, three B at the current job before you leave. Because if you leave July rolls around, and you now aren't the new job and love in life, but you can't contribute anything, there's no way to fix that there's no way to go back and say, Oh, hey, old job JK, I'd like to put more money in can't. And the new job isn't gonna let you do it for a year. And that is really typical, we see it a ton. So you have to actually, I'm going to say it budget for this and understand that, Hmm, I might switch jobs. And if I do that I'm already starting to look, I would start actually making more contributions to that retirement plan. Because the odds is that you will probably find an awesome job. And they will have a one year exclusion. And so you'll be left out and extinct. The other way that we see it is you switch jobs, and you haven't made things but it might not kick in for 90 days. And even at that that might put you in a bind where, okay, it's not going to click in for 90 days, we're in July, I won't be able to start making payments maybe until October. And into that now when October rolls around, I have three months to make six months of contributions. And you're going to have to increase the percentage that you're going to contribute in to maximize for the year. But at the end of December, remember to change that number. So then in January, you're not putting in a crap ton of money. Because we've also seen that error, they did the right thing. They tried to max it out for the end of the year. And then oh, January just pulled like 50% of my paycheck in there. And then you got to go and do the mental math and figure out how much you need to put away. And if the budget. That's the thing dreaded B word you have to budget for this.

Jimmy Turner 18:39

And this one's tricky, because Ryan, you obviously have a lot more experience here on this one. But I'll ask you a question in a second. No questions. First of all, this is something that everybody goes through. So when you leave residency, you may not have been contributing to your 401k for three B and then all of a sudden you have six months to max it out if that is in your plan, right? And so it's not 1625 a month is 30 to 50 for those six months to get to that goal. And then again, like Ryan saying in January, you got to reset the clock. So make sure you don't put 30 to 50 in the first month of January when you reset I'm gonna interrupt you really quick.

Ryan Inman 19:07

So with that what I'm talking about is an attending moving to another job as an attending, right. You're already budget if you're a resident Don't be like Dude, don't you remember when Taylor is in training? Like I don't have enough money to max it out? Yes. I'm not telling you to max it out. I'm talking attending and attending. If you're a resident. Make sure though you plan ahead and go, Oh, shoot. Okay, guys, good call. It's not the normal amount like I need to put more in and please, please, please, is super important. Don't say, well, I'll just put what I can in and I'll figure it out next year. No, this will go by next year, you will have more money. You will be cash rich and be like Oh, I can't remember like what it was to live like a resident. Just trust me on this one. You're gonna want to max it out. Because the next year you're going to look back and go. I really wish I'd have done that.

Jimmy Turner 19:51

I'm so glad I did that because I

Ryan Inman 19:52

couldn't go back once January 1 rolls around. There's no going back. It's like when you end up refiling your federal student debt. Thank Going back. Oh, going back.

Jimmy Turner 20:01

Yep, exactly. And then what I was gonna say too, though, Ryan, and I'll just ask you for your experience on this, but I have heard of people that forgot to change things back and they they front loaded their 401k or four, three B and their employer basically said, like, Hey, you know, that matching thing that we were gonna do, since you put it all in early, we're not going to actually provide that because it supposed to be matched over a time period. And so they lose out on some of their matching. Is that just folklore? Have you seen that happen

Ryan Inman 20:26

too, a little bit, it depends, again, by the plan and how the plan documents are written. But let's just go with that. That is the case, okay. And you have six months to do that, no matter what happens if they give you the money or not, you're going to want to get the money in. So I would say obviously, free money is nice. But I don't care about the free money As long as I can get the money in the first year. Now, if you forget to switch it back, and you end up having some issues, I would probably talk to HR and go, Hey, I forgot is a way to roll this out. Like maybe there's ways to fix it that has happened before. Again, it's down to the plan the administrator, what is actually written in the details of the plan, which you likely will not see, which is not I don't think a huge deal to not see it, it's more important just to be like set the reminder for like December 28 or 29th. And go in and just make the change again, and just not make the mistake in the first place. But if you're in that mistake, and say well shoot, I forgot January funded basically 50% in one month bomber. Okay, worst case scenario, they can't fix it, they won't go back, you lose out on some of that. That's a bummer. mistakes made. Move on, don't dwell on the past, try to fix it. But again, not the worst thing, it would be far worse to not get money in than to not get the full match from the employer.

Jimmy Turner 21:42

Hey, Ryan, what I'm doing that thing I do where I cheat and read your notes. And this next one is my favorite

Ryan Inman 21:48

Mother of God. All right, so what is the next one, it happens all the time. And this one is a classic, it happens a lot with people who end up hiring a financial advisor who is compensated by assets under management. And it's when you change jobs, and they go oh, hey, you know that 401k or four, three v that you've been deluging putting all this money into and there's hundreds of 1000s of dollars in there. Let's just roll that out to your IRA. And that way I can manage it for you. Of course, their fee will go up. And the reason that this is a mistake, one advisor, find a new one because they stink. But the reason it's a mistake is it will prevent you from doing the backdoor Roth, there is a pro rata rule. And if you have money in a traditional setting, or a traditional IRA or a Sep, you will not be able to do the backdoor Roth contributions. And instead, it's way better actually, to just leave it in getting this isn't I shouldn't disclaimers, this is not investment related financial planning advice, but is much better to just leave it at the old employer if you're not forced to take it out, then to move it to a traditional IRA. And that is exactly for the backdoor Roth now if your old employer that you currently been at for maybe years had really crappy investments and high fees, fine, I can maybe argue that you shouldn't leave it there. But the real thing that you should do is move it into the new employers plan. And so when you're talking to them and looking through that benefits package, see if they accept rollovers, most of them do, there's not a reason that they really shouldn't. But see, if they accept rollovers and devils in the details, the new plan could have really high fees and be crappy investments. And that's something you should do your due diligence on ahead of time. And if it does, that doesn't prevent you from taking the job. But it's something to be aware of. But that might mean that I don't want to move it to a traditional IRA. And I don't want to move into new employer because the new employer stinks. I'll keep it up the old one. But the last thing I would do is move it to that traditional IRA. But it happens all the time, and is super frustrating for us to see that sometimes people want to do it because they think, Oh, I read this and let's do it. And I'm like, I don't think you should. It doesn't make any sense. A lot of the time you can roll it into a new employer plan.

Jimmy Turner 23:56

I get this question a ton. Usually it's after the fact. But there are only three reasonable things that you could do and keep your backdoor Roth IRA option intact. If you change you can keep it where it was, can move it to your new one, like Ryan said, and if you happen to have income that you earn on the side, you have an individual or solo 401k. Like I can accept rollovers, not all of them can, you can put it into that. And all three of those options, keep the backdoor Roth IRA open. And so for me, I always ask people this question. I say, hey, those are the three options. Can you tell me why your financial advisor told you to go with the fourth, which now precludes you from doing a backdoor Roth IRA without getting hit by the pro rata rule? And basically taking away the benefit of doing a backdoor Roth, just think through that there are four options. Three of them are correct. One of them is not and they chose one option that is not best for you. And like Oh, well. He put like that was like I can tell you. And the

Ryan Inman 24:46

bummer is that they can still call themselves fiduciaries because they can turn around and say well, those investments were not the best in that plan and therefore I'm going to put you in better investments according to your risk tolerance, so they can even be a fiduciary and still get away This kind of under the guise of that. So be very careful with that in if your advisors told you to do that shop for an advisor, because it's not a good thing to do. And it's usually just done because they make more money with that. So talking about making more money, and we've hinted at this a little bit, but I think the fifth and final one, and we'll probably spend a little more time talking about this one, just because I think there's some behavioral pieces to that, but switching for the money, we see that all the time, I can make more money here. And they're either not thinking through the mistake is they're not thinking through it completely. And not looking at like, what about the call schedule? What about this? Do I have a further commute? How does it work? Do I have to move? Do I know the city that we're moving to all sorts of stuff come up? Or they're thinking like, the grass is greener, I'm in a really crappy situation. But this EMR system sucks, or whatever, I've got a ceiling here, I don't know, could be a number of things. I look at it mathematically. It's just how my brain works. And then I switch over and look at it behaviorally. But mathematically, I'm like putting out a T account or draw a T and do a pro and con, why would I want to do said decision? pros are this cons are this? And thinking through all of them and going can I live with the cons? And do the pros outweigh those cons? And then behavior Lane? I think, Jimmy, I'll let you go into this one. But what is causing you to want to switch positions? And is it something that you can actually fix with either mindset, or in your situation, changing around what your job may look like without having to literally get up and move and to switch jobs? And then would you be truly happy with more money? And the answer is usually no. Right? coding was a Gz Mo Money Mo Problems, Mo Money Mo Problems, we should really cut that little slice of the Money Mo Problems in here. But coming back to are you switching just because it makes right I will say yes, as a money nerd. I like money. I like spending it. I just like earning it in the process and the journey. I'm a weirdo. But with more money, is it actually going to make you happy? And if you say, Well, look, I'm going to make from 200. I'm going to now make 350. Yeah, there's a lot of 150,000 reasons that you might want to switch jobs. But if you're like the example I had where I was, like, I'm moving from 300 to 330. Cuz it's more money. What are the other things that are going to line up in that pro column that are going to cause you to want to switch? Or is it just I heard it was fun. I heard it was good in this situation kind of stinks. And I just need to get out of here.

Jimmy Turner 27:22

Yeah, I'm gonna save a lot of listeners a lot of pain on this one. This is the way your brain works. There's something called the motivational triad. Oh, I

Ryan Inman 27:28

thought you were gonna say, I'm done. And that was it.

Jimmy Turner 27:31

I'm done. Yeah, I'm just gonna stop talking. Because I know I'm causing you lots of pain, I'm just gonna walk away right now. That's where I thought you were going with this. Sorry, guys and gals, I was wrong. He's gonna talk there's more pain, common Mo Money, Mo problems. So motivational triad is the idea that basically everything that we do in our life, every decision that we make in our life, is to either seek pleasure, or avoid pain. And the third piece of that the triad is to do either of those things as efficiently as possible. So basically, everything that you do in your life, is to seek pleasure as efficiently as possible or to avoid pain as efficiently as possible. And so this is why like, when it comes to coaching, I love talking about financial freedom, it's so important in my mind that that's the fuel that you put in the car, to get to the ideal life that you want to live without money, you can't get there, like it's just not possible money buys you time. And that time is what allows you to do whatever you want with your life. The problem is that for a lot of people, including myself, I went down this road, I mastered my money early, and I was miserable. I was so miserable. And the reason why is because my mindset was so bad. And so I actually had to learn how to dive into those topics. And to do a little bit what Ryan's talking about in terms of figuring out exactly what was the thought that was driving my misery, like, Why was I so upset about my current situation. And when I started figuring that out, I was like, oh, gosh, this is not as bad as I thought it was. And there are a lot of good things that I'm not paying attention to that I'm choosing to avoid. Because the narrative that I was telling myself was just basically placing this magnifying glass on the things that were causing me to feel miserable. And so I've actually seen this happen with alpha clients in two different ways. And this is one of the more common things we actually coach on in the program. One of them is a doctor who is in a position that makes them a ton of money. So they're in rural America or somewhere else, they're getting paid a lot of money, but they don't like the job, their family's not happy. They're not close to other family, they don't have the support system they want and they will stay in that job, instead of going to a job that pays a little bit less, that would be infinitely better than all the other regards. They'd actually like the job, they would be closer to family, like I've seen that happen so many times, because a lot of people that come into the program come from the financial independence community. And so they have this like fire mentality, like I'm going to save as much as I can as fast as I can. And that way I can someday live the life that I want, and they don't enjoy the journey, like it's a miserable place to be. And so that's one way that I see that. And the second way is when people switch to try to find a better situation. So they're like, I'm not happy. And so I switched, I already did it. And this just goes back to that money and mindset thing. It's both of them. You have to have both, because I know far too many people. It's far too common for people to change circumstances to change where they work, and then to be miserable at this Second place to because they never figured out why they were upset in the first place. And so if you don't do that thought work, you don't put the time in to figure out where your head's at, and exactly why you're not happy, there is a very high chance like 90% or higher that you're going to change jobs and be miserable, just like you were at the other one. Because it turns out that it's not all about money. It's not all about, there's a lot of stuff that you can control. So we spent tons and tons of time like teaching people basically, when they blame it all on the job, they're giving all the power to the job, like they're placing themselves in the position of being a victim. And when you do that, you've given all of your power away. And so you can't control how happy you are. And so when you go to the new job, you're a victim again, and you're just as unhappy.

Ryan Inman 30:37

Yeah, you haven't built that plan, you call it thought work. And I call it planning, right, you haven't gone down and everyone's brain works differently. So for me when I do planning, and maybe Jimmy, you could talk about how you do it, but I literally draw giant t on a piece of paper. And I'll literally write pro on the left and con on the right. And my thought work is Jimmy calls it is going through and talking about pros and cons. And they're not all financial. In fact, most of them aren't financial, in the decisions that I'm making. And it's the way that I can process the information, and basically come out and make the most educated decision with the pieces of data that I have. And that's just how I do it. There's other people who treat it differently. But that's how I go through and kind of look through But again, it's planning those pieces. Okay, if I was to take a new position, and these are my cons I currently have does the new position, solve some of these cons? does it solve the ones that are the most important? Like, there's always, hey, I've got 20 things on my to do list, these three are super easy, so I'm just gonna knock these out. But maybe they weren't that meaningful, right in the same concept, or, hey, I've got 20 cons, and it only knocks three of them down. But they're not that meaningful job is probably going to make you unhappy still, because the big things that you're unhappy about, actually aren't getting fixed or solved in any way, shape, or form. Other than making you probably more vulnerable and exhausted, because you now just picked up and moved in switch positions, you're learning a new system, you're figuring out who's cool and who's not who you want to work with who you don't like working with. And add into that now you still haven't figured out the cons that were really needing to be addressed. And the worst ones are, well, here's the pros, and which are the pros go away. And oh, maybe my cons are solved. But if these pros go away, then I'm in big trouble. Because these are things that actually like make me not want to pull my hair out and go crazy. At least that's how I laid out.

Jimmy Turner 32:27

The two things that come up almost always in the sort of coaching calls for me is one, people have a fear of failure. So they have a hard time pulling the trigger on a decision because they're afraid of quote unquote, getting it wrong. And they don't realize that the only person in their life that gets to decide whether the decision was right or not, is them and not somebody else. Like there's not necessarily a wrong thing to do sometimes in these situations. And the second one is, and this is the exercise that I bring people through is Alright, let's draw this out. Even before I was a coach, even superseding my religious views is this idea that I really appreciate when people are consistent, like just be consistent, right? And so let's draw it out. Let's be consistent. What is the end of this decision? What does it look like? What's the worst case scenario in both of these situations, and Let's march it out, okay, you stay in job a, what's the worst possible thing that could happen? Job B was the worst possible thing. And then it really draws out those cons you're talking about in a very real way, it's Oh, if I stay here, I might get divorced, because my wife or husband is miserable. And they've actually talked about letting me go a couple times, because they've noticed how miserable I am. And I'm like, Okay, let's compare that to job B, I might not like it, I might have to change jobs again. Okay, and so like, when you sort through that, and if you can get yourself to the position. And this is the really beautiful place to be if you can do this, the branch point happens like this, if one is a worst case scenario that you can't accept your decision just got easy, you're choosing the other one. If you can get to the beautiful place where you can accept both worst case scenarios, then you just get to decide based on whatever your heart wants, and what is your goals and your intentions and purpose and the things that are important to you. You just pick and neither is right. Neither is wrong. It's just a decision. Get rid of that fear of failure, just make a decision, change the job or stay at a job. You can accept both worst case scenarios. And that is a powerful place to be because you like no matter what happens is going to be okay. And if you can get clients there, which we often can they now have this all like that's just so relieving. I don't have that fear anymore. Now I can make this decision from a very different place. So I think it's one of the more fun conversations that I get to have with people,

Ryan Inman 34:25

and it's gonna be okay, Jimmy, it'll be okay. It's always gonna be okay. Hopefully this was valuable to you guys. We appreciate you being here. If you stuck around this long, please make sure you subscribe to the show and at least tell one other physician family that we exist so we can help them understand personal finance and feel more comfortable. Don't forget to reach out to our sponsor today, which is Gary Keller, physician financial services for any of your disability insurance needs. He's been around and a bunch of physician communities and he's helping them find the coverage they need Jimmy and I said we trust Larry, he's a good guy. He does the right thing. And you can find them at doctor podcast network.com slash will Larry killer. And again, the link is in the description of the show you're listening to right now. Without further ado, the most important part of the show is the disclaimer. Alright everyone, have a great week and we will catch you next Wednesday. Cheers.

Unknown Speaker 35:12

Take care my friends.

Jimmy's daughter 35:18

My dad, Dr. Demeter is a practicing anesthesiologist. Mr. Aiman is a fee only financial planner, you should know that this show is not personalized financial advice. In fact, this shows only for your general education and entertainment purposes. So keep listening to learn how to become a yourself as a joker or go find a great fee only financial plan like Mr and min to create a personalized financial plan for

Ryan Inman 35:46

word hear. Bye bye bye.

Jimmy Turner 35:49

All right.

Ryan Inman 35:50

Hi, Nathan. Nathan.

Jimmy Turner 35:52

Sorry, I uploaded the wrong file last time.

Ryan Inman 35:54

Sorry, not sorry. Sorry.

Jimmy Turner 35:56

Not sorry. Oh, gosh, I had to fall off what's connected my shoulder. Alright. Yep, three, two, still my fault.

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