Money Meets Medicine Podcast
MMM 58: Stupid Mistakes Doctors Make
Doctors are not immune to stupid mistakes. In fact, I’m a doctor. And I’ve made quite a few of them in the realm of personal finance! In this episode, we discuss some of the common financial mistakes doctors make.
There are a few things in life we just can’t ignore. Like examples of raging dumpster fires… or slow-motion accidents… We just can’t ignore them even if we want to.
See what I mean? You just can’t take your eyes off of it. Now go listen to the stupid mistakes doctors make!
Today You’ll Learn
- Some of the stupid mistakes others make (and how you can avoid them).
- Ryan’s secret crush on cryptocurrency.
- How to get started off on the right foot with your personal finances.
- Investing, asset protection, and social media influence on your money.
- And more!
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Jimmy Turner 0:00
Watching doctors and their families make mistakes when it comes to investing is sometimes like watching an accident in slow motion. There's gonna be major damage, but you just can't help but watch. Keep listening to avoid becoming an investing dumpster fire like Ryan,
Ryan Inman 0:15
Jimmy Turner 0:23
Welcome to the money meets medicine podcast where we talk about the personal finance topics you wish you'd learned in medical school. I'm your host, Jimmy Turner. And here's your co host, who is a flat fee only financial planner who believes in broadly diversified index fund investing, but secretly has a crush on cryptocurrency,
Ryan Inman 0:38
right? I have a crush on saving and investing in everything other than whole life insurance. That's really how this works. To be honest, I'm the firm believer in yes index fund investing and to do that for my stock allocation in my portfolio. But it is not everything that I invest in. And I have a very long, long time horizon. And I have a very interesting maybe dynamic or mindset around diversification. So we own real estate. And this is single family homes we sold the majority of them we still own our own primary residence and one that my cousin lives in. I invest a very small percentage of my net worth in alternatives crypto is one of them. Wine is another one. You like Donkey Kong, don't you? I actually don't know how to pronounce his dog coin.
Jimmy Turner 1:29
It's gotta be doggy coin
Ryan Inman 1:30
usually coin like I don't get it? I don't know. All I know is I actually get a very weird sense of humor. I like it when Elon Musk tweets on it and then watches the price of that crap go up. It's hilarious. I do not own any of that full disclaimer on it, because I have no idea what the hell it actually is. I feel like it's just a rip on Bitcoin. I don't know,
Jimmy Turner 1:49
it sounds like an investing mistake.
Ryan Inman 1:50
There's a lot of investing mistakes that's happening with GameStop and AMC and people who are playing momentum stocks and options and danella, which I have done in my investing career, pretty much all of those with different names. And we'll talk about my mistakes as we go through this because this is the series where we're breaking down. And we started with Jimmy's mistake on disability. We're now transitioning to my mistake that I think is most relevant. If you ask my wife outside of finances, I make every mistake in the book. I agree, literally cuz my brain works 1000 miles an hour, I apparently put additional way that had like, a quarter inch of water and it was one of those like clear things that you store food in or whatever. And apparently I was just doing something else and I put it away and she pulls it out of the covers like, what the hell is this? I was like, Yeah, I To be honest, I have no idea. So I make 1000 mistakes, but I want to highlight financial mistakes. And I'm going to take honestly you guys through my whole investing career starting as early as 13. Yes, I'm a nerd. And we're gonna get caught up all the way up to today. But before we get in the show, our sponsor is a fantastic independent insurance agent that I know like and trust and think he does a fantastic job. And it's Mr. Insurance and they're a small business that helps physicians with their disability insurance needs. Michael Revis is a CFP, professional and an insurance agent committed to helping physicians nationwide. With their term life and disability insurance needs. He provides an objective transparent and education focused process that aims to help physicians make prudent decisions and avoid over complicating things. He exclusively offers own occupation disability insurance policies for residents, fellows attendings. We really like Michael, I know that he's got your best interest at heart when it comes to disability coverage. And I know that you're going to be happy with whatever your needs are by reaching out to Michael and you can do that by going to doctor podcast network.com slash Mr. Insurance, or contact him at 800-817-4522. And that link will be in the description of the show that you're listening to us right now regardless of podcast player, so check him out if you need a term or disability coverage or if you need a review of your policy to make sure after hearing last week's show and Jimmy's train wreck that if you need to get a review from an independent agent Michael is someone that we know like and trust and I've ran lots and lots and lots of policies through and he's helped us out a lot with that.
Jimmy Turner 4:18
So Ryan, I'm really excited to hear about all your mistakes like when I
Ryan Inman 4:21
dream it Jimmy's like frothing at the mouth guys, by the way, we can see each other You guys can't on our show. But Jimmy's got this whole new fancy podcast area, which I'm super jealous of awesome, to be honest, because I've been saying for a long time I wanted to do something like that. And Jimmy's like hold my beer, watch this. I might get his IP again, whatever. But I think we're gonna start doing some video stuff. And if we were right now and I apologize that we're not you would see Jimmy's excitement like he's radiating like I just told him Oh, policy. So yeah, of course you're excited to go over this, Jimmy.
Jimmy Turner 4:53
So you're 13 you started investing. Tell me all the dumb things you ever did.
Ryan Inman 4:58
How long do we have because this is good. Are we a very long show? like Jimmy said, I was 13 when I started investing, I earned some money through some side gigs if you want, my main job was being a student. And I was such a nerd. And this is showing some of the privilege that I had growing up is that my parents always treated as school was my job. And then I was paid for my grades. And so we had a set amount for an A, I got a certain amount for bees, I got a lot less for C's, I got nothing, and was likely grounded. And if I ever got a D, or F, like it was all of your money and your life, so you never made any money. I made a few bucks because those bees know, I was not the smartest kid in school by any means I had friends that were significantly smarter. But I think I had like three, five or three, six in school, pretty much going all the way through I was study kind of a minus person, never top of my class. Like if I was I'd probably be a doctor. Although I'm grossed out bloods, I would work out either. No, I would take this money. And I begged my mom to open a TD Ameritrade account, begged her at 13. And she's like, this is the worst idea ever. But sure. And it was fun. It was interesting, I got to learn about stocks, I did my research, my mom in the beginning was like, if you're gonna do this, and you're gonna put any of this money in, then before you buy something, you need to come and make your case to me of why you're buying this right in from a young age. It was like, just make sure you understand what you're buying. And so I had to go do this research. And I had all these things. And about after like the sixth time that I had, like a multi like 10 page report, and I took an hour each time I was going to give my pitch to the Investment Committee. My mom's like, you got this just go have fun. She was just like, I already know, you're a nerd, just go with it. And I made money, I lost money here and there. But I invested after mom forgot, all of a sudden, I'm not just gonna buy Disney. I'm not gonna buy this like tech company. I'm gonna penny stock, this crap wallet, this thing moves from one penny to Penny and a half. I like 50% of my money. So what was the momentum trades that I could potentially be doing? And how could this work. And all of a sudden, I got trapped up into like random forums where we were talking about penny stocks. And I was doing this and I'm the weirdo kid, I've had an eBay account since 2001. That is 20 years I've been on because I was selling random crap to then turn around and invested in penny stocks. So it was a very interesting evolution of going from like mega cap to penny stock. But the 13 year old brain was like, Why take the boring route when I can go the fun route.
Jimmy Turner 7:29
And so I think in this show, Ryan, as opposed to the last one where we list all the things at the end, I think this is gonna follow up pretty naturally just listing these mistakes as we go, because I think most of them have definitely made most of them except for the first one, which is what you're missing. Right? So the most common mistake that I see doctors make you started 13. It's pretty nerdy honestly. But it's also pretty cool for anyone listening and likes personal finance. So we all wish we'd started that early on. The most common mistake that I see, though, is doctors not investing. I can't tell you the number of people that come up to me, and they're like seven years into their practice. And they're like, hey, Jimmy, I guess what I did? And I'm like, what's going on? I'm used to them. No, I'm being like, I paid off my student loans like, Oh, that's awesome. Good job. But sometimes they'll be like, Oh, I maxed out my four, three B. And I'm like you make $400,000 a year in seven years, and you just maxed out your four, three B. That's what I'm thinking in my head. Outside nonjudgmental style. I'd give him a big high five and say Good job. But like I turn around, I'm like, Oh my god, I'm doing the math in my head for how much money they lost. You didn't do that you started 13 picking penny stocks. And so you got in that train missed that first mistake that I see most doctors make, which is just not investing. And I think one of the big reasons why people do that is because they're afraid of the market. They don't know enough about it. They spend more than they earn they completely go all in with a direct effect when they finish training and buy a house and they gotta buy everything is supposed to go in the big house and the car that's supposed to go into the big house garage. Most common one I see is not investing in dude. All the way at 13. That's pretty impressive.
Ryan Inman 8:52
Well, yeah, except for you're gonna hear the rest of the story that doesn't go as well as that sounds, but I can't wait. The money has gone up and it is gone down significantly. And I won't go through my whole life story because honestly, we would be here hours if I went through this, but the idea was, I was one picking individual stocks. I was not patient. I was trying to time the market, but I was also trying to time it with the most highly speculative crap you can actually buy which is penny stock. I thought it was Auggie coin. It could be that too. I have yet to make that mistake. But there's still plenty of time. And this wasn't a lot of money. But to a 13 year old. This was all the money in the world. Right? Because it was all the money I made. I literally took hard work of what I had to go do over the summer jobs. And I put 100% in my savings rate was 100% unfortunately, was 100% in crap. Now. It made me look smart because as I was investing, think of the time period. I was in ninth grade in 1998. So what was happening during that timeframe, the tech boom tech bubble and everything you could throw a dart at Most random, obscure crap company that has never made a penny, and you could quadruple your money. So I was using the worst companies ever. I was picking companies, but I was making money. And then when the tech burst, so did the portfolio, right? And my mom's over there going, like, How the hell is he doing what is going on? And as it burst, everything came back to reality. I didn't lose everything. But I lost a lot of gains, and a lot of money, relatively speaking. Again, if I told you the amounts, you'd be like, Who cares? But it's because you aren't attending and money is a lot. You aren't the next Warren Buffett? No, not by any means. But I didn't learn the lesson. That's the worrisome part, right is I didn't learn the lesson of Hey, I traded this stuff. It was like, Oh, well, you know, maybe next time, I shouldn't pick penny stocks. So it didn't stick with me that, hey, it was the act of trying to time the market and buying individual securities. That lesson hadn't occurred yet. And the lesson was, I was just using really crappy type vehicles to invest in. And throughout college, I invested in all sorts of random stuff. But again, I would take money that I earned, and I would invest in different things. And and that
Jimmy Turner 11:07
is a perfect segue right into Mistake number two.
Ryan Inman 11:11
I'm not even looking at this list. The Jimmy's got
Jimmy Turner 11:13
I am I looking at the list? The list is important to me, Ryan, and it would be important to me if you'd appreciate the doctor, I wrote a checklist and I gotta follow
Hey, well, hey, hey,
Ryan Inman 11:22
sorry, there's 1000s of you that just went like I'm offended. It's okay, though. I still love you all.
Jimmy Turner 11:27
I don't care if people get offended, right.
Ryan Inman 11:29
All right, what's the next thing that I'm violating?
Jimmy Turner 11:31
So when I originally wrote this list, I wrote investing non investments. And what I meant by that was whole life insurance. Please don't buy that. I've never done that as my generalized education advice.
Ryan Inman 11:40
I wish none of you ever did that, too. But I know that's not the case.
Jimmy Turner 11:43
But what I really meant is like investing in things that are just like completely speculative and or not investments, like all of the speculative stuff, though, is like the cracks we keep making about doggy coin, and the gmv or GameStop, stock and all that other stuff with penny stocks that Ryan's alluding to, you are a busy Doctor, please stop pretending that you know so much. And that you can read these giant reports and like the analysis of the CEO, and the cape ratios and the PDE, and all this stuff to make these crazy, awesome smart investment decisions. So Ryan's not the only one that does that. Like, I can't tell you the number of times I've been in the doctors lounge. I'm an anesthesiologist, right. So we still have one of those doctors Lounge is where the surgeons and anesthesiologists hang out. perioperatively. And I'll be listening to people tell stories about money they made on X, Y, or Z, or we'll be sitting in there. Oh, yeah, I made money on you know, GameStop, or, you know, that movie chain that I can't remember the name of it. Like, I just I just can't. So it's a lovely, sexy story to tell that you made all this money, supposedly on this one thing, but then they don't tell you about the 50 things that they lost money on?
Ryan Inman 12:47
What's the Facebook scrolling crap, right? You see, everyone's like, ideal life curated reality. It's like point 1% of their life. And I wish I truly wish everyone was living their ideal life, I think so many things in the world would actually be fixed and everyone wouldn't hate each other. But in reality, it's really tough to get towards the ideal life, we try our whole lives to try to get there, even if you're
Jimmy Turner 13:11
going to take us on a tangent here, because what you're talking about is so important to me, like literally one of the subheadings in the physician philosopher podcast to taking an uncurated look at physician life. And one of the reasons why for me is the public experience that people have either on social media or in real life where people only talk about the good things. And it drives me crazy, because I do wish that we were all living our ideal life. But I also wish people would admit when they're not like, it's like, you're human, like stuff sucks sometimes. And I just really appreciate when people are honest about that. So it would be lovely if someone was like, yeah, you know, I invested in this one thing it took off, but hey, I the other 10 investments that made zero, and just had a more, I don't know, honest or genuine or just full fledged discussion. That's not how humans work. A lot of times that transparency is lacking. But then when you're on the other end of it, especially on a phone on social media scrolling, it makes you feel like Oh, your marriage is terrible compared to everyone else's. And so as you're investing and so as your kids are terrible, and all this other stuff, and you see the curated life of what it's supposed to look like that really
Ryan Inman 14:04
segue, tangent, and it drives me crazy. just drives me absolutely bonkers. It's the reason why I truly and I don't say hate, I really don't throw that word around lightly. And I am like, two degrees, just shading below hate of social media, because it causes damaging effect. It's why I honestly think that we're so polarized as a country. It has not helped us in any way and we're all that effing product, which drives me nuts. That is where all the product, and maybe we see it and we're just like, whatever. It does long lasting harmful effects to your portfolios to your relationships, everything, if you think that what you're seeing is truly real.
Jimmy Turner 14:48
And I think that it leads to one of the other common mistakes that doctors make with investing which is the social media influence, and we talked about this on a special episode with GM stock and with the other stocks it kind of took off along with it. When Elon Musk tweeted that one tweet or Wall Street bats and the impact that Reddit had on that. And this is one of those things where social media influences you, whether you realize it or not, it influences your investing too. It's not fun to keep posting about diversified low cost index fund investing, how many times can you hear that? And you're like, Oh, my God, please stop. That's not very fun to listen to. But we keep saying it. And the reason why is because it's accurate. And I'm not saying that you can't invest in other things. that's never been said on the show, it never will be. But when you're following other people's investing advice from random people on the internet, that's probably not a great way to pick what you want to invest in. And so what I'll tell you is investing, it's actually probably more common, not with the particular investment that you choose. But when you decide to buy or sell, I cannot tell you how many times I see on Facebook or she be like, hey, like the markets doing this? What do you guys think I'm thinking about bailing and going to cash because I think it's just, we're at a peak. And I just think that I need to get out. And since you're asking random people on the internet, a question that is going to just turn into a raging dumpster fire for your personal finance situation, by trying to time the market based on other people's random opinion on the internet.
Ryan Inman 16:08
We saw a lot of that in March of 2020, as things were declining, even in our communities now with our clients, because we've, I think, made it an absolute priority to educate our clients, not just in investments, but just everything around personal finances. But the physician finance group, like our community for financial residency has 6000 people in it. And it was absolutely all of a sudden, everyone was a stock picker, and a market timer. And I think this is gonna be I think, cruise lines are going to come back roaring, I think the airlines when this is done is going to technically own them. Right? If you index like you've maybe you don't own the outsides portion, everyone either loves or hates Tesla, right? Yes, surprise, you own a lot of Tesla, borderline too much. Because it's 6% of the funds. Now, it's a massive amount that you own of the top six companies that are top 10 companies, if you will, that are in the total stock market or s&p or extended market, whatever it is, but for the total stock market, it's a 20% allocation that we all technically have. And going back to Ilan real quick and listening to what influencers or even big CEOs, I think, Ilan to me personally, I think he's brilliant, and I fully support what he's doing. But that doesn't mean I have to support it with also my investments. Yeah, I want him to succeed. I want him to colonize Mars, I want him to figure out neural link, I want him to give 5g to the world. I want him to have renewable energy. I want him to do all those things, and more. And I'm happy he's the wealthiest guy in the world. Because you know what? He's gonna keep putting money back in to make our world a better place. And yeah, he's gonna be wrong. And yeah, maybe he's batshit crazy. Okay, I think to be doing things that people are saying is not possible. You have to be right. And he's done it multiple times over. But that doesn't mean that I have to then go as far as putting my money into wallets Tesla or die. Like that doesn't make any sense.
Jimmy Turner 18:02
He's definitely not on the spectrum of normal at all. But you can't be
Ryan Inman 18:06
he dug a hole under LA and thought this was a good idea. And it might actually be a good idea. But like, he somehow is thrown out all this money to do this. And it might work. He might have this Hyperloop go to Vegas in like half an hour. It's like sweet, that'd be cool. 600 on our bullet train on magnets. That's pretty crazy. Underneath the soil. Yes. It's pretty crazy in his tweet where I want to reference this and then we'll get back to it as he says in retrospect, it was inevitable. And that has been immortalized now in the blockchain, because he turned his description in Twitter profile to Bitcoin, a serious, absolutely serious and what it literally moved Bitcoin in a two minute period like 20%, one tweet, Bitcoin now he's a big guy, and he's a smart guy. That's how much people are influenced about it. So taking advice from people who have no idea who you are your situation, how much your savings rate, whatever it is, stop listening to people stop listening to us, though, this is not advice.
Jimmy Turner 19:03
Right? I really appreciate you giving an example to our listeners where if they follow Elon Musk, they can go up 20% in Bitcoin, and it's like, don't follow people. That's a terrible idea.
Ryan Inman 19:13
Guess what it did? after it came back down? It filled the gap. Right, the price filled the gap in Bitcoin came back down. Yep. Which is what goes up must come down. I mean, it's kind of happens, but we don't know when that can happen, or how that'll work. And that is not again, investment advice. But like, what Jimmy and I are talking about is other people have made mistakes, but let's get back to my mistakes because I love it. That's my favorite thing. I know Jimmy's loving this. Hopefully you guys like it too. And so I think where we left off, Jimmy was in college. And I basically took the penny stock version of this and was like investing in horrible crap, too, in college when I was learning about business and marketing and finance and all this stuff. But I was investing in alternatives and doing things now if you thought I was nerdy, it's about to get a whole lot nerdier now But watch this. Oh, my beer. Oh, what, since I was basically as long as I can remember my grandfather was a massive coin collector. And he'd been collecting since the 50s. He was a pilot, old school pilot and would actually take my mom when she was little out, like they'd fly from Vegas to San Francisco and go to the mint, and it was Bigelow. So it's always been in my blood, as long as I can remember, I bought and sold coins, like collectible coins in college, like gold, silver, platinum coins. I still have a lot of them today. But I traded coins. And that crap is super volatile. And not just the base metal, but like the actual collector where there's a premium on top of metal and there's all sorts of stuff. And I made a lot of money and lost some money. Doing this stuff in college again, could I have just opened up an account like a Roth IRA, and invested normal index funds and probably came out significantly more head. absolutely horrible.
Jimmy Turner 21:00
But I've done I actually made this mistake too. This is before I knew anything about the stock market. But someone pointed me in a conspiracy theory kind of direction on just basically every civilization that's ever gone to a fiat currency where it's backed by paper, there's no gold in Fort Knox. I basically took this thing hook line and sinker. And I was like, oh, maybe I should have physical gold and silver on hand bullion. And so I had coins, I had Philharmonic's, I had all sorts of stuff, Silver Eagles. And so I did the same exact thing. I'll be honest with you. And I ended up later selling it at some point during training. But yeah, I look back and say, Man, I put a couple $1,000 into that, if I put that into a Roth IRA. Oh, man, I don't want to think about that anymore. Actually.
Ryan Inman 21:42
Yeah, but it happens. And I've done that exact thing. Now I didn't go the hook line and sinker all the way to the deep end of the pool. I also think that our Fed is screwing a lot of things up. And they don't look as crazy as they used to look. Yeah, you know, I'm talking to silver bugs and gold bugs and all of that. But again, just like in real estate, when one person gets into real estate, they usually go way too far down the spectrum. And all of a sudden, they're liquidating and taking loans from their 401 K's to buy more real estate and to leverage it up and make those mistakes like the golden silver bugs, go swimming the other side of the pool, and they put everything into it. And again, anything in extremes no matter what it is, I think is bad. Anything totally. And so we've referenced a few extremes that I think are bad. But it doesn't mean that you can't own gold absolutely doesn't mean you can't own silver, it doesn't mean that you can't own real estate. And this is where it comes back to I believe in diversification, things are going to go up things are going to go down, the more diverse you are, as long as you can manage it. And understand the risk. Most people don't understand the risk, they start diversifying and can't actually manage what they're investing in, they lose track of things and lose accounts. And whatever it is, those are both really bad things.
Jimmy Turner 22:54
So I think this goes to one of the things that I see people make, like broadly speaking, which is that doctors are just oftentimes not intentional with their investment plans and with saving, where I see this a lot is people will come to me and be like, I've actually had clients they're like, completely burned out in medicine, and they're getting coaching on what to do and where to go to move forward part time versus retiring altogether. And you simply ask them, like, how much do you have? How much do you need? Let's dive into that a little bit. If you have any idea how much money you need to retire, have you ever talked to a financial planner? Have you figured that on your own? Like, where are you on that, and they literally had no idea. And I was like the biggest problem in your life right now is that you want to retire from medicine, you are well into your career, let's just say multiple decades. And that is the biggest problem is the thing we talked about every time and the one piece of information that you need to make the decision about whether you can retire or not, like you've just never intentionally thought about before. And so they just been blindly saving some money for their entire career, having no idea how much they would need, and then defending and then determining how much they would save. Same thing with like diversification, like you're talking about not being intentional about where your diversification is, and having an intentional investment plan. And that might be the most common one I see among doctors is just not being intentional and set and having this thought that like, Oh, it's just going to take care of itself. Like I'm a doctor, I make lots of money. And so if I save, that's just going to take care of itself, I don't need to worry about it. And like we take my students in the personal finance curriculum awake through the exercise and show them actually, in fact, the data this is being recorded, it'll be tomorrow, that I'll be giving this lecture and showing them exactly how much they need to be saving as a percentage of their income if they start saving at 30 or 35 when they finish training to have a reasonable amount of money. And I think the first time people see that the numbers 20 or 30% like Oh, I thought it was 10 doesn't everyone say 10% I'm like everyone else started saving money when they were 21 and they graduated college you didn't. So no, it's not 10%
Ryan Inman 24:51
their debt was also 30 k not 300 k Audrina they probably make 100 and not 300. But then I think the biggest mistake actually doctors make is Not only are you doing Latin and compare yourself who's not a doctor, but then we are victim to this too, is that when you're done, you're like, well, I deserve XYZ, because I sacrificed ABC, and you absolutely did. And you do deserve everything under the sun,
Jimmy Turner 25:18
that goes to show exactly how powerful your thoughts are. And the reason that I do life coaching and business coaching is exactly that. The thought that I deserve to do this, whether that's true or not, I'm not going to go into that. But that thought drives all of the feelings you have, that then lead you to buy a whole bunch of stuff that you think is going to make you happy, and you don't save. And that all came from a bad thought, a thought that was not serving you. And so it's all about intentionality here. And that's why we love the show. It's why we love educating doctors and determining ways that you guys can get your personal finance house in order so that you're not a raging dumpster fire. And I think that it's just so common. And that's why we started this Ryan is to help make that less and less common with each other we make.
Ryan Inman 26:02
Yeah, I mean, the blunt, honest truth is that in let's bring it back to this investing piece is that if you don't have an investment policy statement, or you don't know what that is, you need to get one, you need to put it in place. And you need to have provisions inside of it that tell you how to make changes and when to make changes. And when you're allowed to make changes. Think about it as a whole household, not individual account, think of household and coming back to diversification and, and alternative investments and all that it all fits in. Whether it fits in for you or not, is unique to you. And the other piece is called our truth is you need a financial plan and not one that's in your head not investment policy statement that's in your head, that doesn't help you, your mind will play tricks on you. And our minds are really bad at remembering things. To be honest, I can't remember half the stuff that I should and would love to remember, clearly,
Jimmy Turner 26:50
like water on a plate and then you put it in the cupboard just like that,
Ryan Inman 26:53
right? But you need an actual written financial plan. And you're doing yourself a disservice by not having that in another disservice by not having an investment policy statement. And if you don't know what that is, again, go research. I think we've even mentioned it several times on the show. But as we're working through this, I went from penny stocks to alternative assets to using leverage, and I bought options. And I did that while actually going through grad school learning how to do personal finance. Now I am the type of person that with out doing something or testing something, I don't learn it as well. And so convinced that this is hilarious, but like, as we started learning about options in grad school, I started trading options. And it wasn't that I was like the smartest person in the world, it was like, I'm not gonna understand this, I started doing it. The unfortunate thing for me was as I made money in the beginning, and I was trading options on Apple earnings, to be honest, and it worked until it didn't. And then I lost all that money. Right. And instead of being stupid and buying options, and doing that it losing money, which I don't want to go into what options are and go that rabbit hole. But if I had just done the right thing and stayed with that Roth IRA and invested that money correctly, which is low cost, highly diversified index funds, I would be significantly better off. And I mean, some of these mistakes with compounding have cost me hundreds of 1000s of dollars. If we really truly think about that, if I didn't lose money in the penny stocks, and I was buying index fund equivalents if I was not putting literally it was about $10,000 that I had accumulated going and buying and selling and it was really fun. It was a hobby that I let it go to foreign was buying and selling coins and all that if I didn't do that, and I just invested that that money would have quadrupled pretty much by now and done it tax free. And that's how I kind of come to these things have I've done dumb stuff, I just had a lot longer investing career than majority of you because I started at 13. But this would be like you in your mid 40s or late 40s figuring out like, Oh crap, I've done a whole bunch of errors. It's okay, like you still have time to recover and still have time to do these things. But I've made mistakes that have cost us literally hundreds of 1000s to come closer to home on tiny now as we round out the show, I decided to leave a six figure job. That was a really good job, because I fundamentally disagree with my boss of not letting me work with the people I want to work with. And I started my own financial planning firm called physician wall services. And that happened about five and a half, six years ago. And if I look at how much in earnings I gave up, because there was years, Jimmy that I didn't pay myself a penny early, like almost five years. I didn't pay myself a penny at the time we were helping like 100 clients 100 physician families, and I never paid myself which is a horrible sin that you shouldn't do. And I'm very fortunate that I'm married to a physician, even though she's peed subspecialty we don't make a lot of money. We still don't spend a lot of money. But my idea was that I was going to invest in myself and that necessarily isn't a mistake because I firmly believe I don't care about the money that is to me, investing in myself to help other people. And it's worked out very well, because we've able to hire staff and train them. And really, we're helping over 200 physician families. Now, that brings me joy, and that I can't replace. But from a fundamental finance standpoint, I gave up a lot of money to the tune of we're talking probably five $600,000, not saving, just like actual earnings. And then if I invested those earnings, is probably a seven figure, you could call it a mistake, that I went and did this, I don't know, if it was an actual mistake,
Jimmy Turner 30:37
I would call it a mistake,
Ryan Inman 30:39
there's an opportunity cost. And there's something that when you look at this, it is fundamentally, if I just did this, my net worth would be a million dollars, more than likely now, the business can grow. And eventually, maybe the business valuation, again, it was the opportunity cost outweighs if I just did the job and kind of stuck through it. But that is a massive deal. And we're inside of that even unpacking it is not only was I investing everything back in, but I didn't have a 401k option. If I did, I wouldn't have the money, I would have absolutely done it. But we didn't have it for like three years. So I'm a financial planner. It's telling people how to do all this stuff. And fundamentally, I couldn't afford to do it myself, again, investing in myself. But that is a significant issue. When we look at the grand scheme of things that I basically could not do a few of these things that are very common sense, and would save money and to do these things. Now we did it in Taylor's tsp or 403 B and we saved in our IRAs, doing backdoors. Like we had a lot of pieces together. But I didn't have everything together.
Jimmy Turner 31:40
The one thing I want to throw in there real quick, as we in the show is that just to be kind to Ryan, as a fellow business owner, it is extremely common to run a business where you don't take profit out and you don't pay the person running the business. And so what Ryan's describing, although for those of you that just haven't run a business, like it's extremely common, and Brian, you actually recommended this book to me, and so I'm just gonna throw it out there on the airwaves for anyone that's thinking about starting a business or if your business is already profitable, and making money and you're listening to this show. Profit first is a fantastic book that teaches you this exact principle to pay yourself first, because business owners will just continually pummel money back into the business, to let it grow to help more doctors to help more clients and Ryan situation. And so that all of that came from a very good place and a very intentional place of wanting to help other people. That's it as a business owner, he didn't pay himself and therefore couldn't invest. And so from a pure personal finance perspective, even though business owner wise he was doing what was best for the business, potentially mistake on the personal side. So that's a book I would recommend to you
Ryan Inman 32:44
wasn't mistaken Mike mccalla Wits is the one who actually wrote that book. And funny enough on March 1, so in just a little bit of time here from when we released this, in financial residency on the financial residency podcast, I'm actually interviewing him. Oh, cool. Actually, listen, it was a really fun show, you might actually listen to the show, Jimmy that you were on months at a time. But anyway, this is all to go back and saying we tried to weave some of the mistakes in and I did it without actually knowing. And now I'm looking at Jimmy's notes. I'm like, Oh, yeah, we've done a lot of these things. But I wanted to give you some perspective that even financial planners, myself and any other financial planner, whether you're using someone or not, we are humans, and we still make mistakes. And there are mistakes that I have made that have cost us dearly, hundreds of 1000s of dollars. But that's not to say that I didn't make changes. And I think the most powerful thing, maybe in all of human behavior, is to have the ability to say, I was wrong. And I can change my mind. And then I can alter the course of my future by making those decisions. And being open to that. And looking back, I was wrong. Absolutely. I did some of the wrong things that led down to a different path that maybe I would have had the money to actually start the company, if I'd just done things a little differently, not start the company, but start it and pay myself because it would have been fully capitalized, we had saved we've done all the right stuff to launch that company and be responsible. But that's not to say I've made lots of mistakes, and I will still make mistakes going forward because I'm human, and so are you. But we learn from them and we move on and we make better decisions from that. So you know without forgetting our sponsor for today that was Mr. Insurance with Michael Revis. He is a fantastic independent insurance agent. And his entire goal is to assist physicians in obtaining the most comprehensive coverage available to fit their unique situation. So reach out for honestly I think excellent and quality service by going to Dr. podcast network.com slash Mr. Insurance and is also in again, the title in the description of this podcast where you're listening to us right now. So before we end, it's time for that important disclaimer. All right, everyone. Well, thank you so much for being here. Hopefully this gives you Some light into what's going on behind the scenes just not for myself. But for Jimmy. And we're going to keep going with some of these mistakes that maybe we've done or that we've seen others do. And hopefully you learn from these because I think everyone can get this honestly voyeuristic little kind of urge to go in and see what others are doing. But I think then turning around and relating it back to your own personal finances, I think will be helpful. So in the future for 2021. We're going to be doing these shows a little bit more frequently, probably once a month. But we want to get too out of the way here and hit the elephant in the room, which is what is Jimmy and Ryan done that are mistakes before they point the finger to everyone else. So hopefully, it's helpful. We love all of you. Please share the show with other physicians and their families. And we will catch you next week. Cheers.
Jimmy Turner 35:44
Take care, buddy.
Jimmy's daughter 35:49
Hi, dad. Dr. Jim meter is a practicing anesthesiologist. Mr. Aiman is a fee only financial planner, you should know that this show is not personalized financial advice for you. In fact, this shows only for your general education and entertainment purposes. So keep listening to learn how to become a three yourself and Joker or go find a great fee only financial planner like Mr. Edmund to create a personalized financial plan.
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